The Roman Myth Of The Abduction Of The Sabine Women Played Out Again In Modern Times.

[sandyRoe]

This time it's all too real. The victims are Yazidi women who've been kidnapped and sold into 'marriage'.
Is there any Surah which condemns, or condones, such actions?

[keyplus90]

Islam is not what Muslims do. Islam is what Muslims are supposed to do. Having said that majority of the Muslims do act upon teachings. But the problem is that people will only see few hundereds or perhaps thousands who are not doing what they are supposed to do out of 1.8 billion.

And then let me tell you one more thing that you people never understand. Forced marriage and arranged marriage are two very different things.

[vetuste_ennemi]

Would you accept the Al-Bukhari hadith as legitimate sources, Mr. Roe?

[naomi24]

Keyplus, marriages between little girls and grown men are 'arranged'.

[sandyRoe]

Does it confirm or contradict Sura 4:24 cited by Naomi?

[vetuste_ennemi]

As a decent fellow, Sandy, (but one capable of dealing with very fine moral and logical nuances), do you allow or disallow (for the purposes of this question) the proposition that the enslavement of women and having sexual congress with them is the equivalent of forced "marriage"?
If you disallow it then so be it: I'll just have to work a lot harder on my answer.

[keyplus90]

Verse Naomi gave 4:24 talks about Slaves through bought slavery and not prisoner of war as she claimed in her post. And why Islam allowed sex with slave at that time (because now it does not exist) had a different motive and through that Islam eliminated slavery centuries before West could ever think about it.

http://onislam.net/english/ask-about-islam/ethics-and-values/human-rights/166931.html

[sandyRoe]

I couldn't do other than accept that. 'Forced' is the operative word. Kidnap and rape are heinous crimes no matter what they're called.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, I didn’t claim it. That came from an Islamic website. ‘Bought’ slaves do not ‘fall into’ their owners’ hands. Check out Mohammed’s views on it.

[Peter Pedant]

.Best answer Naomi

I have difficulty in accepting non combattant women as prisoners of war .....
perhaps spoils of war but that is not very 14th century is it ?

and Sandy if it is a Roman myth - then it is not factual but representational. here the story is really about the assimilation ( perhaps forced) of a neighbouring tribe ( sabines ) into the Greater Roman Republic....

But here thte Yazdi story is not science fiction - it is science fact !

[agchristie]

The phrase 'those whom their right hands possess' appears 14 times in the Koran and usually applies to prisoners of war.

[Peter Pedant]

I think we have to accept sex with a slave ( male or female) was 'OK' for the time. I wonder why Catullus spent so much time courting Lesbia, considering he could bonk nayone in his household at any time....

Slaves were a 'res' in Roman Law and this definitely was carried over to Islam.

[Peter Pedant]

sura 4: 24 is causing as much confusion to Christians as it obviously does to Muslims

[naomi24]

There’s no confusion. Islamic literature makes it perfectly clear:

"O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.” (Bukhari 34:432)

"We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter" (Sahih Muslim 3371)

[Peter Pedant]

I was gonna say - the problem is quoting religious texts out of context. goodlife gets it in the neck whenever he does this.

but Naomi ya narty narty girl - you have quoted a hadith - Bukhari - and you know well that these are not as good as a quotation from the Quran.
In fact haditha have a hierarchy - which is why there is a who-said-what-to-whom at the beginning. And clearly a hadith passed on thro twelve is not as good as one from the mouth of the prophet himself....

so ... no Naomi it isnt that clear.....

[naomi24]

Peter, I beg to differ. Not naughty at all. Mohammed's word is sacrosanct. It was he who, against the specific instruction of the Koran, deemed that all Muslim men should be circumcised.

[vetuste_ennemi]

Do you think the Bhukari hadith about the rape of women seized as booty is inconsistent with anything the Koran says on the same matter, Peter? You wouldn't argue that I am using the word rape inaccurately, would you? And in what contex, would you suggest, should we put the story?
An aside. Good job Clanad isn't reading this, you naughty boy, you: he's very particular about his plural forms.

[vetuste_ennemi]

..and nice to be reminded of Catullus. There were the stories about his sister, too, Peter. Not that I'm one for gossip.

[sandyRoe]

Did they enjoy a Byronesque relationship?

[vetuste_ennemi]

That was the talk in the forum, Sandy.

[naomi24]

Where else? ;o)