Karenarmstrong/peter Tatchell On Is. Ch.4 News

[Khandro]

Did anyone see the interview with them last evening? She put forward the views which regular visitors to these threads will know I have been propounding (and being berated for), for some time, viz. that the upholding of the Islamic religion has only a very minor part to play in the motivation of these jihadists. Many are in fact quite ignorant, have never had a level religious education, and it has been discovered that they have recently been buying copies of 'Islam for Dummies'. !
Peter Tatchell was also excellent, having been brought on as an antagonist, he turned out to be in agreement with more or less everything she said.

[naomi24]

http://www.channel4.com/news/is-religion-to-blame-for-war-video

I’ve just watched it, and whilst I think Peter Tatchell was very polite, I don’t see that he was in agreement with Karen Armstrong at all. She says that “religion permeated everything in the past”. It still does. She also says, referring to IS, “We’re not talking about Islam here – it’s just sheer thuggery” - but we are talking about Islam – and contrary to her contention the “The problem is not Islam, but ignorance of Islam”, the problem is Islam. Radical Islam, as Peter Tatchell rightly implies, is motivated by religion, and whilst that clearly doesn’t meet with Karen Armstrong’s ever rosy view of religion, it’s a fact. Reading any of her books confirms without doubt that Karen Armstrong is a religious apologist.

And incidentally, it’s grossly misleading to say //Many are in fact quite ignorant, have never had a level religious education, and it has been discovered that they have recently been buying copies of 'Islam for Dummies'. !”// Only two people were found to have bought that book.

[Khandro]

The subject of the programme (thanks for the link) was not religion per se, but the IS jihadists, and PT's agreement was with her on that, ie motivation by ignorance and young male biological aggression. As an atheist he could hardly agree with her on religion in general, but that wasn't the issue.
If two jihadists had been actually discovered to have copies of 'Dummies', I think you can take it there were many more subscribers.
Incidentally, once off the subject of homosexuality - and I've never heard him talk of anything else - I quite warmed to Peter Tatchell.

[naomi24]

His interpretation of ‘motivated by ignorance’ probably differs somewhat from hers. All religion is motivated by ignorance.

I lost a lot of respect for him when I heard him defending the rights of homosexuals to partake in sexual activity in public areas, I think in this case, Hampstead Heath – which is a shame really. Much of the time he talks sense.

[Khandro]

Correction; It is atheism which is motivated by ignorance - and lack of spirit.
"A little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds back to religion."
Francis Bacon

:0)

[naomi24]

Atheism isn't motivated by ignorance - quite the opposite. Francis Bacon was wrong.

[jomifl]

Atheism is informed by ignorance....other peoples ignorance.

[Khandro]

Ah, R&S! Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

[ludwig]

I bet you got that from 'French for dummies'.

[naomi24]

Haaaaaaa! You are a twit!!! :o)

[Khandro]

Ludwig; So you have a copy too!

[naomi24]

Khandro, here’s a thought. Do you think the people Karen’s talking about – you know, the ones who don’t know much about Islam – learnt their “sheer thuggery” by reading “Islam for Dummies”?

[boxtops]

Perhaps we ought not to use the word Thugs for fear of upsetting Hindus...... (but that's a throwaway, I don't want to disrupt this thread)

[naomi24]

Boxy, "sheer thuggery" was the term Karen used in the clip.

[Khandro]

naomi; I wouldn't know, having not read it (perhaps we can ask Birdie to read it for us, lol). I doubt it advocates thuggery, I think that comes from brainless aggression brought on by sexual repression, in highly-testoroned, ignorant young men.

[ludwig]

// Ludwig; So you have a copy too! //

Of course. I consider the 'dummies' books to be the creme de la menthe of educational literature.

[jomifl]

/ I think that comes from brainless aggression brought on by sexual repression, in highly-testoroned, ignorant young men. /
Love it!

[naomi24]

Haha! Of course it does. That's why it's by far more likely to find young Muslim men creating turmoil in this world than young men from any other section of society. Nothing to do with Islam. ;o)

Birdie doesn't need to read it. He's read the original.

[vetuste_ennemi]

Have read the review of KA's "Fields of Blood" this week's Spectator.
The "debate" on C4 wasn't up to much, was it?

[vetuste_ennemi]

Two distortions (let's avoid the more direct word) were Armstrong's "..nothing to do with Islam: this is plain thuggery" and Tatchell's "...warped interpretation of Islam". Both remarks are misleading: there is nothing that IS has done which could not PLAUSIBLY be justified by direct reference to the Koran and the hadiths. These include beheading the enemies of Allah and the enslavement and rape of unbelieving women. As Mohammed himself did both those things it must be wrong (and perhaps blashemous) to describe those actions PER SE as unIslamic.

[Khandro]

n.; most, but not all young men in other sections of society find other outlets, well we certainly did.
v_e, It was hardly a debate was it, just an interview, I thought it very good, but I would, wouldn't I?