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Keyplus, Please do not challenge me to convert you.
It's not in my pay grade.
Out of genuine concern for you, I beg you to pray to our Lord Jesus Christ, repent of your sins, and ask Him for the free gift of forgiveness and eternal life.
Ask Him to come into your life, right now, and make Himself known to you, by the gift of the Holy Spirit.
If you pray and ask Him with a contrite heart, and all sincerity, He will reveal Himself to you, and together we will praise Him.
May God bless you Keyplus.
It's not in my pay grade.
Out of genuine concern for you, I beg you to pray to our Lord Jesus Christ, repent of your sins, and ask Him for the free gift of forgiveness and eternal life.
Ask Him to come into your life, right now, and make Himself known to you, by the gift of the Holy Spirit.
If you pray and ask Him with a contrite heart, and all sincerity, He will reveal Himself to you, and together we will praise Him.
May God bless you Keyplus.
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Theland – That made me laugh actually as I can feel that you are trying to hide now. Because you are trying to share your faith and trust in Jesus (pbuh) with me where as you don’t even believe in him according to your own book. As for Jesus, I believe more in his teachings than you do. However once again I will ask you to prove that you do believe and have faith in you Lord Jesus (pbuh) according to these verses of you Bible (and not Quran). Because when it comes to faith then word alone are not enough. Otherwise show me one verse in Quran where I have to do something to prove my belief and I will do that wherever, whenever and in front of whoever you ask. This is Book of Mark Chapter 16 and Verse 17 and 18. Come on I need JUST ONE Christian out of almost 2 billion and you could be that.
17:And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18: They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
17:And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18: They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Keyplus, and you’re the one who believes that an angel forms a foetus in the womb and after 40 days Allah decides its gender (you never have explained the angel’s abysmal handiwork in fashioning disfigured and handicapped babies or conjoined twins). And how about the stars – you know the missiles that were created to ward off demons? I keep telling you the authors of all religious books wrote nonsense but you plough on regardless.
///17:And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18: They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. ///
Not often I agree with keyplus but I too have challenged christians with these verses. The usual response is dont put god to the test. My response is, Im not putting god to the test, merely asking to see the credentials of a true believer.
18: They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. ///
Not often I agree with keyplus but I too have challenged christians with these verses. The usual response is dont put god to the test. My response is, Im not putting god to the test, merely asking to see the credentials of a true believer.
Ive heard of people recover from blindness, lameness & other diseases after visiting Lourdes & Mt Theresa & the orphan indian smallpox babe dieing my g'mother had baptised who is now 80+ And an RC Bishop.
As for 'new tongues' its a babble sound (on youtube) of prayer. I think this is what v15 alludes to.
As for 'new tongues' its a babble sound (on youtube) of prayer. I think this is what v15 alludes to.
I prayed for faith for about 40 years. I really envied my friends who had what seemed a staunch faith to help them deal with life. Since that faith was not granted to me, I started to wonder why, and to think things out for myself. Then I realised that "wondering why" and "thinking things out for myself" are fatal to the idea or religion. I am now a relieved and contented atheist instead of an anxious would-be believer.
Hooray.
Hooray.
Wolf – Yes in my avatar that’s 100% me. But I am not jumping from anywhere.
Tamborine – Yes thanks, we (my two sons and I) did enjoy USA. No, we did not go to Grand Canyon as we only went to New York. Kids, you know, just wanted to go where almost all of the American Super heroes wander around.
Naomi – this thread was posted by Theland who calls himself a Christian and I am just questioning his own faith before he could share that same faith with me. But I do wonder why is it so that whenever I have some sort of discussion here with a Christian then a lots of Atheists, especially a few who are die hard as far as AB is concerned, jumps in to aid Christian and Christianity. Perhaps their roots and DNA pushes them into it.
Nailit – I will not go into pushing someone but as Theland posted a thread in my name so then unfortunately I had to. You see, if ask you that I would like to share a drink with you. Then by default I must have a drink first of all myself otherwise how would I share something that I myself do not have. So my brother Theland is trying to share his faith with me so I had to test if he himself had faith or not. Now lets see what he says. I wouldn't ask him for much to be honest. Out of those 5 points in the above verses I may only ask him to drink a glass of home bleach and see if it affects him. Of course I would not like to give him anything “Deadly” thing as verse 18 claims.
Too be honest I am waiting for Theland’s response and only then I may educate him a bit about what Jesus (pbuh) did or did not say in Bible.
Tamborine – Yes thanks, we (my two sons and I) did enjoy USA. No, we did not go to Grand Canyon as we only went to New York. Kids, you know, just wanted to go where almost all of the American Super heroes wander around.
Naomi – this thread was posted by Theland who calls himself a Christian and I am just questioning his own faith before he could share that same faith with me. But I do wonder why is it so that whenever I have some sort of discussion here with a Christian then a lots of Atheists, especially a few who are die hard as far as AB is concerned, jumps in to aid Christian and Christianity. Perhaps their roots and DNA pushes them into it.
Nailit – I will not go into pushing someone but as Theland posted a thread in my name so then unfortunately I had to. You see, if ask you that I would like to share a drink with you. Then by default I must have a drink first of all myself otherwise how would I share something that I myself do not have. So my brother Theland is trying to share his faith with me so I had to test if he himself had faith or not. Now lets see what he says. I wouldn't ask him for much to be honest. Out of those 5 points in the above verses I may only ask him to drink a glass of home bleach and see if it affects him. Of course I would not like to give him anything “Deadly” thing as verse 18 claims.
Too be honest I am waiting for Theland’s response and only then I may educate him a bit about what Jesus (pbuh) did or did not say in Bible.
Well Keyplus , have you ever heard of the concept of speaking metaphorically ?
Also , the scholars have done their very best to put together the ending of the gospel of Mark from ancient scriptures .
So keyplus ? what do you want me to do to prove my Christianity ? Post a youtube video of me drinking a glass of poison and surviving ?
As you are fascinated by the Gospel of Mark , I hope you don't mind instead if I put up a youtube video by someone who knows much more about the Gospel of Mark than you and I .
link :
Also , the scholars have done their very best to put together the ending of the gospel of Mark from ancient scriptures .
So keyplus ? what do you want me to do to prove my Christianity ? Post a youtube video of me drinking a glass of poison and surviving ?
As you are fascinated by the Gospel of Mark , I hope you don't mind instead if I put up a youtube video by someone who knows much more about the Gospel of Mark than you and I .
link :
Evangelical Christians like him^, just like Islamic scholars, try very hard to make the facts fit their preferred view. Looking at his website, it appears that this man is a Minister at Curtisville Christian Church, Indiana, USA – congregation approximately 50. Frankly the only thing I can see there that makes sense is the declaration, //No guarantee of perfection in this website is stated, and none should be assumed.//
// have you ever heard of the concept of speaking metaphorically ?//
Among all this hocus-pocus, who decides which is metaphorical and which is not? Of course we have to say that the bit about drinking poison is metaphorical because that can very easily be put to the test.
Keyplus, //lots of Atheists, especially a few who are die hard as far as AB is concerned, jumps in to aid Christian and Christianity.//
As an observer viewing all of this from the outside, I’m not jumping to anyone’s aid but rather attempting to balance the argument. Personally, I think the whole thing is potty. The simple fact is men cannot walk on water, they don’t rise from the dead, new born babies don’t speak, and clay models of birds do not suddenly spring into life and fly off – no matter who breathes on them.
// have you ever heard of the concept of speaking metaphorically ?//
Among all this hocus-pocus, who decides which is metaphorical and which is not? Of course we have to say that the bit about drinking poison is metaphorical because that can very easily be put to the test.
Keyplus, //lots of Atheists, especially a few who are die hard as far as AB is concerned, jumps in to aid Christian and Christianity.//
As an observer viewing all of this from the outside, I’m not jumping to anyone’s aid but rather attempting to balance the argument. Personally, I think the whole thing is potty. The simple fact is men cannot walk on water, they don’t rise from the dead, new born babies don’t speak, and clay models of birds do not suddenly spring into life and fly off – no matter who breathes on them.
Just as good an excuse as any to demonstrate how badly written and ambiguous the bibble is, possibly on purpose, I thought I'd have a go at creative new meanings:
//17:And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils;//
Firstly, I'm willing to bet we'd all agree on the meaning of "cast out", in that the devils are to be thrown out of people, as opposed to places or things. The way in which that concensus arises shows how ingrained in our society the notion of "demonic possession" is. Even atheists do not need it explained to them: they have received the programming; they merely reject it. ;)
Anyway, my spin would be: "they shall cure mental illness, in (his) name".
// they shall speak with new tongues; //
I wanted to be obtuse and argue that this meant the recently ejected devils would be forced to speak with a new tongue: a fresh victim.
Otherwise, I'd take this to mean "they (marvellously vague specification, so every reader will, egocentrically, think it applies to the) will learn to speak new languages".
That sounds unremarkable to us, in this day and age but, to a biblical-era audience of illiterate subsistence farmers, maybe this came across as a magical ability? Why acquire new languages, though? Does the narrative move on to spreading the word, worldwide?
//18: They shall take up serpents; //
Errrrrm, nope. Complete creative spin failure, with that one.
Why "take up" and not "lift up" or "raise up". I have to add the obvious: ...above the head, otherwise, especially that last one, the verb is prone to being misinterpreted as meaning rearing, as in breeding/farming. This is exactly why the original word (Greek? Aramaic?), on the original manuscript needs to be seen and its useage, in that era, guessed at or found from contemporary material.
//and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; //
I'm wondering if this is a smoking gun indication that they went about duping onlookers with fake "deadly" potions, to win converts? But what would be recognised as deadly, on sight, in the biblical era?
//they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. //
Too self-explanatory to be spun but I am suddenly curious about the etymology of the word "recover". If it was ever used literally, what was covered for a second time? How did this morph into the figurative sense of regaining health?
Again, the exact word or phrase used in the original manuscript would be interesting to know, for comparison.
//17:And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils;//
Firstly, I'm willing to bet we'd all agree on the meaning of "cast out", in that the devils are to be thrown out of people, as opposed to places or things. The way in which that concensus arises shows how ingrained in our society the notion of "demonic possession" is. Even atheists do not need it explained to them: they have received the programming; they merely reject it. ;)
Anyway, my spin would be: "they shall cure mental illness, in (his) name".
// they shall speak with new tongues; //
I wanted to be obtuse and argue that this meant the recently ejected devils would be forced to speak with a new tongue: a fresh victim.
Otherwise, I'd take this to mean "they (marvellously vague specification, so every reader will, egocentrically, think it applies to the) will learn to speak new languages".
That sounds unremarkable to us, in this day and age but, to a biblical-era audience of illiterate subsistence farmers, maybe this came across as a magical ability? Why acquire new languages, though? Does the narrative move on to spreading the word, worldwide?
//18: They shall take up serpents; //
Errrrrm, nope. Complete creative spin failure, with that one.
Why "take up" and not "lift up" or "raise up". I have to add the obvious: ...above the head, otherwise, especially that last one, the verb is prone to being misinterpreted as meaning rearing, as in breeding/farming. This is exactly why the original word (Greek? Aramaic?), on the original manuscript needs to be seen and its useage, in that era, guessed at or found from contemporary material.
//and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; //
I'm wondering if this is a smoking gun indication that they went about duping onlookers with fake "deadly" potions, to win converts? But what would be recognised as deadly, on sight, in the biblical era?
//they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. //
Too self-explanatory to be spun but I am suddenly curious about the etymology of the word "recover". If it was ever used literally, what was covered for a second time? How did this morph into the figurative sense of regaining health?
Again, the exact word or phrase used in the original manuscript would be interesting to know, for comparison.
Benhilton – I am afraid you are wrong and that man does not know any more than I do or anyone else does. He is just presenting a well-known argument that do not take words as they may sound aka metaphorical expression. I don’t believe that there is anything metaphorical when it comes to Mark Chapter 16, verse 17 and 18. Because it talks about faith, belief etc. Above all Christians like Theland believe that every word in Bible is God’s word. I am not sure why Christians keep on taking God’s words out of Bible when it does not suit or when they can’t explain it.
However it seems that Theland has gone asleep. You see, Christian faith is all about Jesus (pbuh) paying their bill by taking over all of the sins. And therefore it does not make any difference if you do or do not act upon what Jesus (pbuh) said. As long as you believe that he will pay for your sins, you are a Christian. Very selfish unfortunately.
I am not a scholar by any means and my knowledge is very limited but I am sure I can explain almost everything in Quran. Whereas I have spoken to well-known scholars of Christianity and they can’t answer the most basic questions and in the end always hide about one phrase. “I can’t answer your questions but I believe that Jesus is my saviour and he would save me”. Ridiculous.
However it seems that Theland has gone asleep. You see, Christian faith is all about Jesus (pbuh) paying their bill by taking over all of the sins. And therefore it does not make any difference if you do or do not act upon what Jesus (pbuh) said. As long as you believe that he will pay for your sins, you are a Christian. Very selfish unfortunately.
I am not a scholar by any means and my knowledge is very limited but I am sure I can explain almost everything in Quran. Whereas I have spoken to well-known scholars of Christianity and they can’t answer the most basic questions and in the end always hide about one phrase. “I can’t answer your questions but I believe that Jesus is my saviour and he would save me”. Ridiculous.
In these verses Jesus is addressing the eleven apostles . Verse 18 - taking up serpents etc . it is clear to me that Jesus is speaking to them metaphorically and the message is that if they are preaching in his name they will be protected from harm and if you read Acts , you will find that Peter was indeed saved from life -threatening situations on several occasions (as was Paul) . Verse 17 - they will speak in new tongues - again , if you read Acts you will find that the crowds in jerusalem were amazed that everyone in the crowd could understand what the apostles were saying , no matter where they were from - Acts 2 , 1-13 .
I am not surprised that certain political activists use verse 18 as a taunt to say " look you're a Christian ,you can drink poison " but I am surprised when a fellow believer does it .
For an authoritative article on Mark's gospel (if you disliked the video) here is a link to the Catholic Encyclopedia on line (newadvent.org) , their article goes into some detail about the two endings to Mark .
link :
http://
I am not surprised that certain political activists use verse 18 as a taunt to say " look you're a Christian ,you can drink poison " but I am surprised when a fellow believer does it .
For an authoritative article on Mark's gospel (if you disliked the video) here is a link to the Catholic Encyclopedia on line (newadvent.org) , their article goes into some detail about the two endings to Mark .
link :
http://
The entire last chapter in 3 parallel scripts , Greek , English , Latin for anyone who's interested ( keep scrolling down for the " second ending " )
http://
http://
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