News1 min ago
J'accuse!
88 Answers
Has boring rationalism, secularism and atheism squeezed out the very life of our society leaving a vacuum which is now being readily filled by Islam?
I read in an article written by a worried mother on her son's 'conversion'; Spectator 4:10:14.
"...Our boy had never shown any interest in religion before he found Islam at 16. We're atheists, and we raised him to be tolerant of all faiths but wary of anyone selling easy answers ....."
She seems to fail to see that there just might be some connection.
I read in an article written by a worried mother on her son's 'conversion'; Spectator 4:10:14.
"...Our boy had never shown any interest in religion before he found Islam at 16. We're atheists, and we raised him to be tolerant of all faiths but wary of anyone selling easy answers ....."
She seems to fail to see that there just might be some connection.
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Khandro, //Had he been brought up in even a moderately Catholic, Anglican, Buddhist or Hindu family and given at least a modicum of religious guidance and standpoint, they wouldn't have wasted their time on him because what they seek are 'empty vessels'.//
That's an erroneous assumption. The killers of Lee Rigby converted from Christianity to Islam. As I said earlier perhaps rather than teach their son to respect all religions, these parents would have been wiser to teach him that the whole lot is hogwash.
That's an erroneous assumption. The killers of Lee Rigby converted from Christianity to Islam. As I said earlier perhaps rather than teach their son to respect all religions, these parents would have been wiser to teach him that the whole lot is hogwash.
Khandro, are you seriously postulating that a person brought up in a culture where the acceptance of the existence of a god is seen as at the least erroneous and at the worst an indication of imbecility, would be more likely to fall prey to islamic recruiters than someone who believes in god but isn't sure which flavour to choose?
-- answer removed --
Khandro
What are you trying to achieve with your argument that all atheists are empty vessels? It's profoundly insulting, ignorant and demonstrably incorrect.
The fact is that the majority of atheists are atheists by choice as opposed to indoctrination. The idea that they are somehow devoid of reasoning and can therefore be easily persuaded to believe any old claptrap is plainly absurd and divisive. Do you think that I am an empty vessel that can easily be manipulated to believe in things that are not supported by material evidence or by logical reasoning? If so, how can you explain the fact that I have never in my adult life believed in a supreme creator deity and that I have argued against such balderdash for most of it? If, as an atheist, I am such an 'empty vessel' I should have, by your reckoning, been filled up with some religious mumbo-jumbo years ago.
As for Michael Adebolajo not having been a Christian before converting to Islam:
https:/
http://
http://
There are more but there's little point in linking them if you're determined in your belief to disregard evidence. On that point, why do you chose to believe that Adebolajo was not a former Christian when all the recorded evidence suggests that he was? On what are you basing your belief? Or are you saying that it is precisely that - belief: a conclusion reached for which there is zero evidence?
What are you trying to achieve with your argument that all atheists are empty vessels? It's profoundly insulting, ignorant and demonstrably incorrect.
The fact is that the majority of atheists are atheists by choice as opposed to indoctrination. The idea that they are somehow devoid of reasoning and can therefore be easily persuaded to believe any old claptrap is plainly absurd and divisive. Do you think that I am an empty vessel that can easily be manipulated to believe in things that are not supported by material evidence or by logical reasoning? If so, how can you explain the fact that I have never in my adult life believed in a supreme creator deity and that I have argued against such balderdash for most of it? If, as an atheist, I am such an 'empty vessel' I should have, by your reckoning, been filled up with some religious mumbo-jumbo years ago.
As for Michael Adebolajo not having been a Christian before converting to Islam:
https:/
http://
http://
There are more but there's little point in linking them if you're determined in your belief to disregard evidence. On that point, why do you chose to believe that Adebolajo was not a former Christian when all the recorded evidence suggests that he was? On what are you basing your belief? Or are you saying that it is precisely that - belief: a conclusion reached for which there is zero evidence?
-- answer removed --
birdie; // why do you chose to believe that Adebolajo was not a former Christian when all the recorded evidence suggests that he was?//
What evidence? The press picked a story to add colour, that he had been a "Christian", based on the fact that his Nigerian immigrant mother had said she had shown him as a child "how to pray" and then the story did the rounds. Also the one in which she said he was "bright". The fact is, he is a moron and his only interests were girls and screen games.
He was no more a Christian than you are, but it seems to suit you to believe that he was, I wonder why.
I have searched the web and can find no examples of real Christians, of any variety, Hindus, Buddists, Jews, Taoists or followers of any religion having become jihadists, though there is evidence that jihadists have done the opposite, one example;
http://
What evidence? The press picked a story to add colour, that he had been a "Christian", based on the fact that his Nigerian immigrant mother had said she had shown him as a child "how to pray" and then the story did the rounds. Also the one in which she said he was "bright". The fact is, he is a moron and his only interests were girls and screen games.
He was no more a Christian than you are, but it seems to suit you to believe that he was, I wonder why.
I have searched the web and can find no examples of real Christians, of any variety, Hindus, Buddists, Jews, Taoists or followers of any religion having become jihadists, though there is evidence that jihadists have done the opposite, one example;
http://
-- answer removed --
list of converts to islam from christianity for your perusal Khandro
https:/
https:/
Khandro - "... Also the one in which she said he was "bright". The fact is, he is a moron..."
I do find it highly amusing that most parents seem to think that their offspring are a little brighter than their contemporaries. It's almost across the board - ask any parent if they think their kids are slightly above average intelligence and they'll almost invariably say 'yes'. Strange but true.
K - "... He was no more a Christian than you are, but it seems to suit you to believe that he was, I wonder why..."
Wonder no more my friend. Quite frankly, I couldn't care less. It no more 'suits' me to think of him as a Christian prior to becoming a murderous Islamic moron that it does to think of him as a Hindu, a Sikh, or for that matter, an atheist. I understood that he was a Christian since that's what was being reported. You say he wasn't. I really don't care enough to look into the matter. If you say he wasn't then I'm not going to argue that point as it's largely irrelevant.
What I do take issue with is your notion that atheists are 'empty vessels" and are consequently more likely to believe any old garbage. The accusation being that atheists, when exposed to fundamentalist Islamic gibberish are more likely to swallow their poisoned brew than people who have an existing religious belief.
K- "... I have searched the web and can find no examples of real Christians... having become jihadists..."
Well there's Samantha Lewthwaite, aka "The White Widow". She was apparently raised as a Christian.
Clearly the operative word in your above statement is "real". Define a 'real' Christian. Unfortunately your argument is identical to the one Keyplus regularly employs in claiming that muslims who commit atrocities are not 'real' muslims. That is to say, you'll deny that any recent convert to Islam who then goes on to become a jihadist cannot possibly have held a strong alternative religious belief beforehand. Ergo, they mustn't have been a 'real' believer in a non-Islamic religion and were probably therefore closet atheists.
This is an example of circular logic. It is unprovable and unfalsifiable.
I do find it highly amusing that most parents seem to think that their offspring are a little brighter than their contemporaries. It's almost across the board - ask any parent if they think their kids are slightly above average intelligence and they'll almost invariably say 'yes'. Strange but true.
K - "... He was no more a Christian than you are, but it seems to suit you to believe that he was, I wonder why..."
Wonder no more my friend. Quite frankly, I couldn't care less. It no more 'suits' me to think of him as a Christian prior to becoming a murderous Islamic moron that it does to think of him as a Hindu, a Sikh, or for that matter, an atheist. I understood that he was a Christian since that's what was being reported. You say he wasn't. I really don't care enough to look into the matter. If you say he wasn't then I'm not going to argue that point as it's largely irrelevant.
What I do take issue with is your notion that atheists are 'empty vessels" and are consequently more likely to believe any old garbage. The accusation being that atheists, when exposed to fundamentalist Islamic gibberish are more likely to swallow their poisoned brew than people who have an existing religious belief.
K- "... I have searched the web and can find no examples of real Christians... having become jihadists..."
Well there's Samantha Lewthwaite, aka "The White Widow". She was apparently raised as a Christian.
Clearly the operative word in your above statement is "real". Define a 'real' Christian. Unfortunately your argument is identical to the one Keyplus regularly employs in claiming that muslims who commit atrocities are not 'real' muslims. That is to say, you'll deny that any recent convert to Islam who then goes on to become a jihadist cannot possibly have held a strong alternative religious belief beforehand. Ergo, they mustn't have been a 'real' believer in a non-Islamic religion and were probably therefore closet atheists.
This is an example of circular logic. It is unprovable and unfalsifiable.
Birdie; If you return to my post 10:24 Tues. you will see what I actually said was;
//Had he been brought up in even a moderately Catholic, Anglican, Buddhist or Hindu family and given at least a modicum of religious guidance and standpoint, they wouldn't have wasted their time on him because what they seek are 'empty vessels'.//
Empty vessels is in quotation marks and refers to how such a boy would be perceived by Islamists. I have not said, nor implied that all atheists are empty vessels, (though of course one or two may well be!) :0)
//Had he been brought up in even a moderately Catholic, Anglican, Buddhist or Hindu family and given at least a modicum of religious guidance and standpoint, they wouldn't have wasted their time on him because what they seek are 'empty vessels'.//
Empty vessels is in quotation marks and refers to how such a boy would be perceived by Islamists. I have not said, nor implied that all atheists are empty vessels, (though of course one or two may well be!) :0)
naomi; //It follows that anyone to whom the whole notion of a supernatural God is an absurdity would be very unlikely to be influenced by any religion.//
Of whom do you speak? Read the OP instead of inventing your own agenda, it says "...Our boy had never shown any interest in religion before he found Islam at 16. "
Of whom do you speak? Read the OP instead of inventing your own agenda, it says "...Our boy had never shown any interest in religion before he found Islam at 16. "
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