When Does A Cult Become A Religion?

[Deskdiary]

Is it just simply a matter of numbers?

Are Jehovah Witnesses a cult? Given their weird beliefs (accepting the fact that believing in any religion is weird - that's a given, obviously) it suggests they are.

What about the Scientologists?

Are the beliefs of Scientologists any less valid than the beliefs of Catholics just because their beliefs are newer? Is Scientology a cult rather than a religion?

[mikey4444]

It is said that it takes a few years to convert a religion onto a cult.

But in the case of Scientology, it seems to have missed the first stage out altogether, going straight into Cult status.

Don't forget that all religions, bar none are invented. But its funny that all these weirdo new religions, were all invented in America !

[Mothman]

Mikey said: //It is said that it takes a few years to convert a religion onto a cult. //

I'd have assumed it was the other way round - that it takes a number of years for a weirdo idea to catch on, at which point the weight of numbers flips it from a cult into a religion (the negative connotations of the word 'Cult' is relatively new - previously this just meant a more 'specific' focus for religion).

From the internet - "....... during the twentieth century, the term cult has become laden with negative and pejorative connotations. These negative associations can include ideas of ‘brainwashing’, conversion and abuse."

No difference to most religions at all then.

[mikey4444]

Mothman...clumsy typing on my part !

I should have said that it takes a few years to convert a cult into a religion.

[Mothman]

It's still early Mikey.

[Mothman]

The second part of your question is interesting though - if you were to get 10 reasonably rational people together and have them list sets of beliefs as either 'religion' or 'cult' I'm convinced the lists would be 99% in agreement, but digging down into the reasons for each selection would likely come to the conclusion that all religions are cults

[mikey4444]

Religion gives a much needed crutch to a lot of peoples lives.
I am an Atheist but I don't really have any trouble with other people wanting to believe what they like.

But obviously wacko things like Scientology just annoy me. If people would only stop for one moment, and use their brains, it would be obvious to them that its basically a cynical, money-grabbing cult. It was invented by a SciFi writer !

[Mothman]

I'm probably a little more extreme in my views than you Mikey - I do have a problem with people believing in nonsense. I'd certainly agree that belief in some forms of this nonsense defy explanation and Scientology is a prime example. It should be a lot easier to debunk any cult / religion that has appeared in living memory but the fact that there are so many people prepared to follow this particular brand of idiocy says a lot about how gullible some folk can be.

[naomi24]

We had a long discussion on this here some years ago. The conclusion was that numbers turn a cult into a religion. I can’t say I don’t have a problem with people believing what they like. Fine if that belief doesn’t negatively affect anyone else, but unfortunately some do – and that’s when I object.

[Deskdiary]

Mikey at 08.59.

The beliefs of Scientologists are, obviously, completely nuts (didn't Hubbard once say (paraphrasing) that the quickest way to get rich was to invent a religion?), but are they any more nuts than believing in, for example, the notion that a man died and then 3 days later he came back to life.

Believing in the Thetan and believing in a man in the sky are equally nuts.....and much much more importantly each have the same level of proof - absolutely none, so this is where I really struggle.

More credibility is given to Christians, than there is given to Scientologists, and yet both beliefs are equally absurd. The only difference is that Scientology is 60 odd years old, and that Christianity is a couple of thousand.

I bet Christians dimiss the beliefs of Scientologists as absurd, with no concept of irony.

I'm getting tied up in knots thinking about this.....perhaps I'll just go with the fact that the beliefs of all religions and all cults are unprovable and just complete and utter nonsense.

[naomi24]

Deskdiary, // I bet Christians dimiss the beliefs of Scientologists as absurd, with no concept of irony.//

Absolutely right. From Richard Dawkins:

“We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.”

[Zacs-Master]

Your only God should be yourself. It's the only thing worth believing in, in this short span we have on this planet.

[Old_Geezer]

Clearly a nonsense statement. To be atheist one has to believe there are zero Gods not no God but the one you believe in. Sort of sums up his (lack of) thinking on religious issues.

Meanwhile I think"religion" and "cult" means much the same thing. Ones you approve, or at least tolerate, are religions; ones you disapprove of are cults.

[naomi24]

Old_Geezer, he does believe there are zero gods but given a bit of thought you'll find it isn't a nonsense statement.

[Khandro]

// (accepting the fact that believing in any religion is weird - that's a given, obviously) //

Obviously ?;
Christianity 2.2 billion
Islam 1.6 billion Hinduism 1 billion + many more. All 'weird', why?

[Khandro]

Food for thought here;
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/11518702/Mapped-What-the-worlds-religious-landscape-will-look-like-in-2050.html

Also, (and uncorroborated), I hear that among the New York gay community, it is now considered "cool" to be a Roman Catholic, and of course, Buddhism continues to flourish in the West.

[Old_Geezer]

It is clear that, "We are all atheists about most of the gods", is a nonsense statement as atheism is total and inapplicable to "most".

[naomi24]

OG, I think he means the sun, worshipped as the giver of life. There's no doubt that that 'God' exists - not that he'd worship it.

[Khandro]

'The word "God" cannot be grasped scientifically, rationally or even theologically without it exploding, it can only be held lightly and poetically.'

Michael Luenig, whom Rowan Williams quotes with approval

[naomi24]

There you go getting all airy-fairy again, Khandro. ;o)

[Arksided]

OP, It's when you become a Jedi.