Belief Is Not A Choice

[nailit]

Our beliefs (or non-beliefs even) are based upon our present understanding of available evidence at any given moment in time.

I don't believe in fairies because I am not presented with any evidence (at this moment in time) that would satisfy me that fairies exist. That could change if evidence became apparent, or even a possibility!
Likewise for Unicorns, Thor, the Bermuda Triangle or Dracula.

So the question is, how can I believe in something that I evidently *CAN'T* believe in?
I dont dismiss the Bible/God/Christianity etc because I WANT to. I dismiss it all because I CAN'T.
What is so hard to understand?

What would make an atheist a believer?
I dont know. But an Almighty, Supreme being would know. And he hasn't showed up yet to convince me....

[Theland]

Nailit - I am interested in what prompted you to ask this question?
I think its more than simple curiosity.

[nailit]

Theland...
//You suffer an internal conflict in my humble opinion//
You are entitled to an opinion, albeit a wrong and presumptuous one.

//I am interested in what prompted you to ask this question?
I think its more than simple curiosity//
First of all its a statement, not a question but yes its more than curiosity. Its an attempt to get believers (by which I mean Fundamentalist/Literalists) to begin to understand why non-believers are just that...non-believers.
Ive heard it, ad nauseam, from fundies that atheists just dont WANT to believe (for whatever reason)! And its just not true...
Atheists dont dismiss the Bible (or the Koran or any other 'Holy' scripture) because we want to. Its dismissed because we CANT accept it when our logic, reason and common sense tells us otherwise. I cannot 'choose' to believe or accept something that I find ridiculous.
In spite of what you may think, I get along well with christians and those of other beliefs. I have religious friends and work with evangelicals. Nothing to do with me what you, or they, believe.
BUT, when the accusations/insinuations that I'm an atheist because I hate God/want to sin/am selfish/etc start to come out, then dont be surprised if YOUR beliefs are questioned and challenged.

[Nical]

Nailit, who are all these 'fundies' who're telling you all these things about atheists? I've been an atheist for over 40 years and I've never been subjected to the stuff you mention - and you've mentioned it quite a few times. I'd say I have non-religious friends, slightly religious friends and deeply religious friends. None of them, not one, has come out with any of the things you say. YOU may feel you need to get believers to understand your point of view, but I'm really not sure why that is.

[woofgang]

I do understand why non believer are non believers......its because they don't believe! The underlying reason(s) for this are as myriad as the reasons why believers believe....and neither of them are my business or even particularly interesting to me. If you are beset by people who keep trying to change your mind about ANYTHING in the face of your wish not to do so then you are hanging with the wrong crowd.

[nailit]

Nical
//I think you're angry, maybe with yourself, because you used to believe all that stuff - and now wonder how you could//
Not at all. I became an evangelical Christian when I was about 15, and yes I swallowed it all hook, line and sinker.
But what it gave me was an insatiable appetite for reading and learning. I wanted to know about my faith, church history, the Bible etc. But that appetite became my undoing as a believer when I started to research things that my church didnt approve of (I wonder why?). I started reading about ancient religions and then the occult, I started looking into absolutely everything that I could get my hands on re: faith based belief systems etc.
I eventually gave up my faith but am not angry at all. Christianity gave me a love of learning.

//Nailit, who are all these 'fundies' who're telling you all these things about atheists?//
You mean apart from the ones on here?
Well theres the door knockers (J.W's and Mormans), for a start. And as mentioned I have Evangelical Christian friends and work for a Christian organization.

[Nical]

Nailit, the people on AB? Really - who are the ones 'on here'? I know only of you and Theland questioning each other, often turn and turn about, the other Christians conduct themselves admirably. I've never been bothered by JW or Mormons. Like you, I have Evangelical Christian friends - mine must be better-mannered! PS If you're being hassled or questioned at work, I'd ask your line manager to have a word. Like Woofgang, I believe there are many reasons why non-believers are non-believers - and also that the reasons aren't hugely interesting to other people.

[nailit]

Woof
//If you are beset by people who keep trying to change your mind about ANYTHING in the face of your wish not to do so then you are hanging with the wrong crowd//
Wouldnt describe myself as 'beset'!
But when told that Im an atheist solely because I want to deny God then I will reply and answer that untruth.

[Canary42]

Night night song for Nailit

[nailit]

Nical
//I know only of you and Theland questioning each other//
Then You dont remember goodlife (J.W) or keyplus (Muslim) or Mani (god only knows what) or others?

//I've never been bothered by JW or Mormons//
Never been particularly bothered myself, invite them in for a cup of tea :-) But when/if they start to insult me, then thats a different matter.

//PS If you're being hassled or questioned at work, I'd ask your line manager to have a word//
LOL, my line manager is a born again type fundie christian. But shes ace, she knows my views and doesnt have a problem.

[nailit]

Canary,
Save it for Mamys thread lol.
Prefer the Robson and Jerome version ;-)

[Nical]

Nailit, Goodlife's stuff was so off the wall, it surely didn't tempt anyone as a debate, philosophical question - as far as I remember, he just pasted screeds of JW stuff and posters rounded on him. I haven't seen Mani or Keyplus recently. I mentioned your work because you included your colleagues in the 'fundies who tell you stuff about atheists', after you said you were sick of accusations and insinuations.

[nailit]

Nical,
Reading back through the thread I can now see how things might appear. Hard trying to get things across in text.

//In spite of what you may think, I get along well with christians and those of other beliefs. I have religious friends and work with evangelicals//
Here^^ I was trying to say that I have no problems with religionists.

//And as mentioned I have Evangelical Christian friends and work for a Christian organization//
And here ^^ was trying to get the same point across despite the preceding refference to JWs and Mormons.
Its all a bit garbled I know, apologies.
Bottom line is...
Dont make the assumption that I dont believe in your faith because I want to.
I dont believe in your faith because I cant.

[Nical]

Thanks, Nailit. I don't know what your 'I can't believe in your faith because I can't' is being addressed to me for, I've told you umpteen times that I don't have a faith! And I, and other people on here, as has been said earlier, definitely don't make assumptions about YOUR reasons for a lack of faith. We accept things as they are, trusting what people simply say - we don't ask or need for it to be justified in any way. You might get a different response from the 'fundies' or 'literalists', but they never seem to respond to your threads.

[woofgang]

ermmmm....as I said personally I don't assume anything about your belief or non belief and if people around you do, then you are hanging with the wrong crowd.

[nailit]

//Thanks, Nailit. I don't know what your 'I can't believe in your faith because I can't' is being addressed to me for//
It wasnt, it was generic. Apologies again.
Trying to get something across in text sometimes seems harder than trying to convince a christian that you are an atheist simply because you cannot believe the Bible.
And is not a choice. Its a rationalist position!

[Nical]

Nailit, whatever it is, whatever you chose to call it, it is your decision alone - and I'm sure most ABers are perfectly happy with that. I certainly don't need, want or expect you to justify it.

[Mamyalynne]

I think the confusion arises because most people, believers or not simply live their lives - they don't need to regularly tell others how they are conducting themselves and why.

I thought Mani was long gone from here, unless they returned under a new name and Ketplus last posted about a Cat Tracker in October 2019.

Maybe I've been lucky, fundamentalists have hardly impinged on my life at all.

[EDDIE51]

The Bermuda triangle exists but there is NOTHING ,supernatural about it ! It is just a very popular sailing , boating, area but one that has a LOT of dangerous reefs ,cross currents, and sub sea rocks just under the surface ! (As well as being subject to violent storms that can arise with very little warning ! )

[EDDIE51]

Nalit, are you an atheist or an agnostic ? I can never be quite sure from your posts !

[Nical]

Eddie, a lot of the time I consider myself as 'nothing' - that seems to cover everything. I don't know if there's a god (gods), but I'd never presume to assert that there are no gods. I really don't mind what other people believe - and 'why' they believe that doesn't bother me at all.