Faith

[nailit]

The Bible says that
//Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen//

How is that any different from saying that faith is
unsupported assertions of impossible absurdities with no good evidence?

Why is ''Faith'' promoted as a good thing?
The 9/11 high-jackers had faith.
So did the followers of Jim Jones and David Koresh.

[naomi24]

You're digressing, Khandro, but you know that so no surprise there. Go chew your popcorn.

[Radagast]

Khandro, how did you make the word conflict italic?

[aelmpvw]

[i] either side of required word

[Spungle]

Why conflate the 9/11 hi-jackers, Jones and David Koresh with Christianity? At the very least these are very poor examples to use, when talking about faith and the bible. More accurate comparisons would be to ask, your question then to say- "Why is "faith" promoted as a good thing? William Wilberforce, Elizabeth Fry, Florence Nightingale, Martin Luther King. I rest my case.

[Radagast]

So there is markup available

[Khandro]

One of the greatest films of the 20th century was undoubtedly Ingmar Bergman's 'The Seventh Seal' - (available free on YouTube)a must for anyone who has never seen it.

Here is a 4 minute + summary about faith - the title of this thread.

[naomi24]

Spungle, //"Why is "faith" promoted as a good thing? William Wilberforce, Elizabeth Fry, Florence Nightingale, Martin Luther King. I rest my case.//

You conveniently neglect to mention all the negatives and all the millions who have suffered at the hands of the religious - but that aside, I don’t think for a moment you should be resting your case, but rather thinking a bit more about what you’re suggesting. Did religion render those people altruistic? Without religion would they have been selfish and uncaring? I don't think so. You should bear in mind that the vast majority of major charities are secular. Those people don't need religion to tell them to behave humanely - neither, in my opinion, did the people you mention - and neither should anyone else.

[Peter Pedant]

// The 9/11 high-jackers had faith. //

so all that shows is that you may not reach salvation thro faith alone.

it's been said before - nothing new here- I can even - eek! - give you the Latin for it - before I take a hike! Hi Naomi! -
sola fidei - so ( vel ergo!) it has been said many thousands of years ago

ergo I go!

[Spungle]

Naomi- why would I mention any of the alleged "millions of negatives" (which exist in your mind) about Christianity? Nailit referenced the Bible, and asked why faith was promoted as a good thing. Without any doubt, whatsoever, Christianity inspired "those people" (Wilberforce, Nightingale, Fry, and Luther-King) to show what their faith meant- compassion, love, selflessness and care for our neighbour- and it wasn't "without works". And without any doubt whatsoever, these people were motivated by their faith in Christ, and His example. They all make that abundantly clear in their writings, speeches and example. As for charities etc, that's nothing to do with the question asked, or the point being made. But would the Salvation Army, or Dr Barnados, or the Samaritans be there, were it not for the Good Samaritan? No. But you knew that already, of course.

[Peter Pedant]

// Spungle, //"Why is "faith" promoted as a good thing? William Wilberforce, Elizabeth Fry, Florence Nightingale, Martin Luther King. I rest my case.// - pasted rom Naomi

Naomi says something sensible for a change - wow - BA to Naomi !

SOMEONE is gonna say: she didnt say that - she said the opposite. Oh. right.

[Peter Pedant]

oops

[naomi24]

Oh no, Spungle. The negatives are not simply in my mind. Religion has been responsible for unspeakable suffering and millions of deaths. That is a matter of record. If you think those people were motivated solely by religion I think you’re mistaken - and actually I think you're insulting them. Genuine altruism takes more than religion. It has to be innate - which is why so many non-religious people work for the good of others.

//would the Salvation Army, or Dr Barnados, or the Samaritans be there, were it not for the Good Samaritan? No. But you knew that already, of course.//

Yes, I did know that already …but the rest far outstrip the few.

A question for you Spungle? I don’t have a religion. Are you a better person than me?

[Spungle]

The question is nothing about altruism, or what you and I think about ourselves, Naomi. It's about faith. Instead of digressing, go back to the original question. The Christian faith has inspired millions to dedicate their lives to the example of Christ and the service of others. You might not like the inconvenient truth that Martin Luther King, Elizabeth Fry, William Wilberforce, Florence Nightingal were Christians, inspired into action by their deeply-held faith in the truths of Christianity, but it's not debatable. Go and read for yourself the preachings of Dr King, the writings of Florence Nightingale, the parliamentary speeches of Wilberforce and learn about what really inspired Elizabeth Fry, and you would learn something. Spoiler alert; it won't fit your anti-Christian narrative.

[archibaldy]

Distinguished // These things cannot be explained--they are supernatural, proving that a supernatural God wrote the text. //

I'm liking the free and easy definition of what proof is. Of course it's easy to 'prove' anything when all one has to do is think it. I do hope that you've never had to perform Jury duty.

[Atheist]

The bible might urge the adoption of faith in things which are 'not seen', but so do other religious books.
I think that teaching that faith is in itself a virtue, regardless of what is being put forward as the subject of that faith, and regardless of lack of evidence to support that faith, is very bad practice and leads to awful splits in humanity.
Northern Ireland - Protestants v Catholics (both christian) resulting from segregated education and religious influence on what children should be taught.
Islam v Christianity ditto.
Sunni v *** ditto

Our children should be taught to think for themselves, and if they have worries or doubts about what they are being taught they should be able to raise this with teachers without the fear of punishment (man's or God's). People who grow up accepting that the faith they were taught should never be questioned can sometimes be persuaded to commit wicked deeds while thinking they are being virtuous.
Fortunately, many people have an innate sense of right and wrong, and do not become religious extremists, but I think the tendency is that the stronger the faith the more likely it is to cause harm.

[Khandro]

Atheist; You put much store in 'thinking', there's a lot more to human existence than that solely.

Have a look at the short video above & better still watch 'The Seventh Seal' if you haven't already. It doesn't proselytize, in fact it is a damning indictment of religion in parts.

[naomi24]

Spungle, You delighted in extolling the perceived virtues of religion - failing to give credit where it’s truly due - an insult to your examples, in my opinion - until you were asked a very straightforward question that required a simple yes or no answer - and that was where courage failed you. Never mind. I’ve got the gist.

Incidentally, no need for paranoia or defensiveness. I don’t have an ‘anti-Christian narrative’.

[Atheist]

Khandro; I do put much store in thinking. One of the horrors of this world is being confronted with mindless assertion or even sometimes violence in support of somebody's faith or belief in something. The old concept of winning arguments by the sword or gun (which proves nothing about the validity of points of view) has always struck me as the ultimate stupidity.
I watched the short video and unfortunately found it difficult to understand most of it. To me it seems a sort of mumbo-jumbo which deosn't really mean anything. One thing I learned in life is that when at a meeting and points are made which I don't understand, then the intelligent thing to do is to apologise for not understanding and ask for clarification. Often other attendees will chip in and say that they agree and they'd been wondering the same thing. She/he who asks questions is doing the intelligent thing, those who don't are just being too scared to admit that they find something puzzling.
Could you boil down the essence of the short video in, say, 200 words? I'm not asking you to do it, just wondering if you think you could.

[Khandro]

I think in essence the film is saying that reason alone isn't enough to have faith (and therefor make a full human being).

In Star Trek terms, it's like Mr Spock & Captain Kirk: Mr Spock thinks only rationally without feeling, he is not a human, the Captain has both rationality AND emotion, he is therefor a human.

[Atheist]

Khandro; do you really believe that people who believe things without good reason are superior to those who don't? What do you think of 'Doubting Thomas'? I think he was one of the most realistic characters in the bible. Sounds like a bit of a dour Scot who doesn't fall for mumbo-jumbo unless he can see for himself what it's all about. Faith can lead to people falling for scams or for smooth-talkers persuading them to have the roof re-done, (or for brexit). People who are suffering and fall for snake-oil.