The Pope's vision of hell

[annavc]

Although I read this section a lot this is the first time I've posted a question. I'm interested to know what people's views are on the latest pronouncement from the pope.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/eu rope/article1572646.ece

Personally I think it's a load of twaddle like all religious doctrine but I'd like to hear everyone else's opinions!

I need something interesting to read while pretending to work!!

[WaldoMcFroog]

Well, it's superstitious nonsense of the highest order, obviously.

It's interesting that the Catholic church has come out with it though. It doubtless co-incides with the shift in believers from Westernised countries to less developed ones, since as a metaphorical stick for the thick, an eternity in a lake of fire is an easily understood image.

Given this is a statement by the Pope, I wonder if this is to be one of the few occasions where the notorious anti-Catholic bigot Theland and I will agree....

[jake-the-peg]

Right so if I've got this straight

Hell is real, Limbo was real 10 years ago but is now not real but a genuine mistake oin what the church thought was real and pugatory is probably real depending on who you talk to?

[Theland]

Well it's about time he got something right.

[jake-the-peg]

Oh good

So there are known knowns, known knowns that were once unknowns but are now known and unknowns that are known

This sounds so familiar but I just can't place it!

[Llamatron]

You know, it's stuff like this that leaves me wondering how on earth anybody can believe any of it.

It's frankly bizarre.

[naomi24]

I'm with you there Llamatron.

[Fingerprint]

I think that peoples opinions on this are obviously going to be linked to their beliefs. If you don't believe in God then the idea of hell or the devil is always likely to be a difficult concept. But then for many religious people and not just Christians - hell and the devil are a very real part of our faith.

I think that Catholic teaching has changed over the years in line with social developments in how people influence and interact with each other. Back in the day threats of eternal damnation were used to influence and control the flock. But at the same time teachers were threatening to thrash pupils with canes and throw board rubbers at them if they misbehaved, parents beat their children in the same way and even in the workplace subordinates were often controlled through physical threats. These days Catholic teaching is focussed upon positives the same way that teachers are trained in the use of positive language to influence pupils.

It's well accepted now that threats of eternal damnation were very wrong and there is no question of going back to it.

[ludwig]

This must mean that in heaven, you really do sit on a cloud playing a harp with little wings on your back. cool.

[naomi24]

Fingerprint: you say there's no question of going back to threats of hellfire and damnation, but the pope has said it's real - and isn't his word infallible as far as Catholics are concerned?

[Fingerprint]

Mani - I should have known any thread about Catholics would soon descend into this 1950's throw back type of discrimination.

To call the Pope a Nazi and the anti-christ is wrong and offensive. If you have been growing up in Nazi Germany at the same time you would also have also been involved in the Nazi Youth as it was absolutely mandatory. He actually tried to leave early and then when forced to return he risked his life by escaping. After being captured by the Americans he then spent the end of the war in prisoner of war camp. Ratzinger has never made any secret of his involvement in the Nazi youth and has gone to great lengths to condemn Hitlers actions. Just read about his last visit to Poland.

The claim about worshiping statues is just a ridiculous lie that fundamentalists always trot out.

Just because Catholics have statues in their churches this does not mean they are violating God�s commandment:

"You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow down to them or serve them" (Ex. 20:4�5);

Yes idolatry is a sin but to accuse Catholics of this is a complete misunderstanding of scripture. God forbade statue worship, but he did not forbid the religious use of statues. Instead, he actually promoted their use in religious contexts! What about the numerous texts where God commands the making of statues?? The story of Moses and the bronze serpent makes it clear that God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images.

Many churches have nativity stautues at Christmas, and if a school has a nativity statue does this make all the pupils idol worshipers? If someone has a Bart Simpson model in their home does this make them an idol worshiper? How are you defining idolatry?

[Fingerprint]

Naomi - Yes the Catholic Church has always believed Hell to be a real place but has never said that anyone had gone there. There is no danger of going back to the old style teaching - which is widely seen as being wrong by todays standards. Modern teaching is focussed upon the positive aspects of faith rather than the threatening style of years ago.

[Fingerprint]

Mani - If you have seen what goes on and believe it's adultery then tell me what it is you have seen?

[naomi24]

Fingerprint: You say there is no danger of going back, but you are an educated man and despite what the pope says, you can believe that. My concern is the effect nonsense like this has on uneducated, impressionable people around the world - and there are plenty of them. Religious superstition is the basis of peoples' lives in many countries, and I can imagine that many will be absolutely terrified by this declaration. I've seen the mass hysteria in Rome when the pope's out in St Peter's Square. We watched in total disbelief. People treat him like a god and they believe every word he utters, so this is dangerous stuff.

[naomi24]

Mani: You really are being ridiculous. I'm not keen on the pope either, but think about what you're saying for a moment. This was a boy - a young boy of Ayrian descent. He was German and he had no choice but to join the Hitler Youth. Those people thought it was a good thing at the time and they considered themselves to be Christian just as much as you do, but they were wrong - and so are you. If you really were Christian, instead of being so damned self-righteous you'd follow the words of Jesus instead of the loonies who fill your head with rubbish, and instead of condemning anything that doesn't fit your philosophy, you'd have a little more understanding and compassion for your fellow man inside you.

[Fingerprint]

Naomi - The fact that you are using language like "this nonesense" shows that you are not prepared to have a balanced reasoned debate about this. I can accept that you have a dislike of Christianity and disbelieve things like this but at least try and have an open-minded approach and not just dismiss religion as brainwashing for the uneduacted. I find the Athiest position hard to understand but I do try to respect their views and try to understand why they believe what they do. Most of the time it's becuase they have seen the world from a completely different perspective to which I have.

What the Pope is saying in this article is not going to be a revelation to anyone. I think almost every Catholic believes Hell to be a literal place and they are not going to be terrified to hear him discuss something they have always believed existed.

[naomi24]

Fingerprint: Did you mean Idolatry? I'm sure you didn't mean 'adultery'. :o)

[naomi24]

Fingerprint: I wouldn't say I'm an athiest, but I can't believe in all the rigmarole that goes with organised Christianity in any of its forms - and I do believe scare tactics about hellfire and damnation are nonsense. If it was a rational concept, I would certainly be willing to have a reasoned debate on it, but although I've looked I can't find a grain of truth to debate. If you can give me a lead and put any credence to it, I'm certainly willing to listen and consider your argument.

As for brainwashing for the uneducated, in many countries I believe it is precisely that. I'll concede that those people have always believed it and will continue to do so, but had the pope declared otherwise, it would have been different.