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Non-Believers
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We've had 'Why do Christians believe?' so let's put the boot on the other foot and ask 'Why do non-believers disbelieve?' I imagine there could be a lot of one line answers here, but a little explanation would be good.
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Why do you need to define an intense, positive reaction to stumulus as 'spiritual' though? Or at least, given that I suspect you define 'spiritual' with a religious connotation, why do you do that?
I bet you don't call extreme, negative reactions to stimulus as 'spiritual', for example the sensation one experiences upon hearing a Westlife single. Actually, scratch that - there are presumably some people who would feel overjoyed at hearing a Westlife single, so it's not even that these stimuli can be categorised as inherantly positive or negative.
Surely these are just intense reactions to stimulus, and let's leave it there? They can be life afirming or life negating, we can all experience them but that's all they are.
I bet you don't call extreme, negative reactions to stimulus as 'spiritual', for example the sensation one experiences upon hearing a Westlife single. Actually, scratch that - there are presumably some people who would feel overjoyed at hearing a Westlife single, so it's not even that these stimuli can be categorised as inherantly positive or negative.
Surely these are just intense reactions to stimulus, and let's leave it there? They can be life afirming or life negating, we can all experience them but that's all they are.
A baby born is a joyous stimulus, a bereavement is at the other end of the spectrum. Both experiences have been used, as you are aware, by people claiming a nearness to God, a moving closer to the unknown and unexplained. The music of life, I suppose, without which, life would lack meaning and feeling. Yes, feeling is what it is all about. The feeling of knowing .... that there is something else. Like Naomi.
But that's a self-defined 'feeling' you're talking about. What makes my life worth living isn't necessarily yours, yet we both claim to experience extremes of feeling. Unless we define 'spirituality' in the loosest possible terms (which I would), it's meaningless, because it has, and can have, no specific universal definition.
Theland, I've categorised my beliefs many times. God is not the biblical god. He or it is much bigger than that. He or it is not petty, or vindictive, or jealous or demanding, or cruel - and he or it isn't solely concerned with the arrogant ants who inhabit this little speck of dust in the cosmos. He or it encompasses all of nature and all of the universe, he or it has never devised rules for human beings to live by, or the concept of 'sin' or the devil, and he or it has never appeared to anyone in any shape or form. With all due respect, believing as you do, I think you would find it impossible to comprehend my beliefs.
Naomi - please consider my comments and / or questions regarding your personal beliefs, to be presented by me, with the utmost respect, and motivated only by a genuine interest in what you believe. Whatever you do believe, I will not knock it, I promise you, as I have no interest in attempting to cause discomfort to you be trying to put you on the defensive. I've been there too often myself!
Do we have to give things names in order to understand them or for them to be worth anything to the individual?
The tags we put on belief systems are one example.
I'm an `ist ' and my faith is an `ism'.
If god was this great and powerful being and Jesus' teachings and messages on how to live the good life attracted such a following then why do people trivialise the grand creative and messianic forces by splitting beliefs like hairs.
Isn't one belief in a God enough?
Obviously not.
The tags we put on belief systems are one example.
I'm an `ist ' and my faith is an `ism'.
If god was this great and powerful being and Jesus' teachings and messages on how to live the good life attracted such a following then why do people trivialise the grand creative and messianic forces by splitting beliefs like hairs.
Isn't one belief in a God enough?
Obviously not.
Theland, your post didn't come across as disrespectful - we're simply having a discussion - so no offence meant or taken I hope.
It's very difficult for me to explain my perception of god to you because it is so far removed from the god of the bible whom you believe to be the almighty. Likewise because you believe as you do it's probably impossible for you to understand how anyone can deny that your god really is the almighty. Nevertheless, I do.
As you said in your post to Waldo, I do have a feeling - even an inner knowledge for want of a better expression - that there is something else, but that something else is so much more than the god of the bible. Rules, worship, sin, repentance, retribution, damnation, fear, guilt, Satan, church, priests, heaven, hell, dogma and self-glorification - an eternal and almighty god cannot need these things. I truly believe Theland, that those who worship the god of the bible have the blinkers very firmly in place and simply refuse to acknowledge the true nature of this spiteful being. I can only imagine that fear of his retribution is the driving force. Furthermore, I believe that man has done Jesus and his message an enormous injustice - and a great disservice - by creating a new religion called Christianity. I'm convinced that this wasn't his intention, and I'm convinced that he didn't believe he was anything other than a man.
Luna, thank you. I know you understand what I'm saying because we've spoken about this so often - and you are right - it doesn't have a title. It's at times like this I wish Wiz's planned get together would really happen. It would be lovely to crack open a few bottles of wine with you guys and exchange ideas, although I don't know how coherent we'd be by the end of the evening!! Hic!!
It's very difficult for me to explain my perception of god to you because it is so far removed from the god of the bible whom you believe to be the almighty. Likewise because you believe as you do it's probably impossible for you to understand how anyone can deny that your god really is the almighty. Nevertheless, I do.
As you said in your post to Waldo, I do have a feeling - even an inner knowledge for want of a better expression - that there is something else, but that something else is so much more than the god of the bible. Rules, worship, sin, repentance, retribution, damnation, fear, guilt, Satan, church, priests, heaven, hell, dogma and self-glorification - an eternal and almighty god cannot need these things. I truly believe Theland, that those who worship the god of the bible have the blinkers very firmly in place and simply refuse to acknowledge the true nature of this spiteful being. I can only imagine that fear of his retribution is the driving force. Furthermore, I believe that man has done Jesus and his message an enormous injustice - and a great disservice - by creating a new religion called Christianity. I'm convinced that this wasn't his intention, and I'm convinced that he didn't believe he was anything other than a man.
Luna, thank you. I know you understand what I'm saying because we've spoken about this so often - and you are right - it doesn't have a title. It's at times like this I wish Wiz's planned get together would really happen. It would be lovely to crack open a few bottles of wine with you guys and exchange ideas, although I don't know how coherent we'd be by the end of the evening!! Hic!!
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