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The point of life from an atheists POV
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I was asked a few years ago by quite a devout christian:
"If you don't believe in God, and therefore don't believe in Heaven, I presume you don't believe in an afterlife or re-incarnation. So what do you think the point of your life is?"
I thought about this for a while and my answer was that the time I have, hopefully 70 or 80 years, is finite and therefore evrything matters - I've more to live for, i've more reason to enjoy my life and take risks and make the most of my 50-odd remaining years. This guy just couldn't get his round my attitude.
What are your views?
"If you don't believe in God, and therefore don't believe in Heaven, I presume you don't believe in an afterlife or re-incarnation. So what do you think the point of your life is?"
I thought about this for a while and my answer was that the time I have, hopefully 70 or 80 years, is finite and therefore evrything matters - I've more to live for, i've more reason to enjoy my life and take risks and make the most of my 50-odd remaining years. This guy just couldn't get his round my attitude.
What are your views?
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jollygreen, I think your conclusion is right on the money. What brings value to things is not only their distinctly desirable qualities but their limited availability. Things that are readily available such as the air we breath and the light and warmth provided by the Sun are easily taken for granted, but when we are deprived of these essentials their value is fully realised and appreciated.
Life in its most basic forms is a process of pursuing the values that sustain and promote its existence and growth. As humans the process of life acquires a completely new dimension. Our ability to reason provides us with options and potentials not otherwise available, among these the ability to determine and choose what our values are. Life itself is a choice we make fully realising that the only alternative, death, is ultimately inevitable.
It is in accepting the inevitability of death that we learn the futility of the fear of death and through this understanding are liberated from its clutches before our time has come knowing we are not at the mercy of the whims of an unjust and wrathful God. Thus liberated we are free to devote our energy and attention to finding meaning in our existence and a reason and purpose for living. Having found a reason and in fulfilling our chosen purpose we provide ourselves with the means for achieving a happiness that has real meaning to us and a value we appreciate by virtue of having earned the right to experience it.
To deceive oneself into believing that life is not all there is to life is to blind oneself to reality and the capacity to find real meaning and value in life is forfeited in the bargain. Having experienced the pleasure of the real thing I know no delusion or fairy tale is a worthy substitute.
Life in its most basic forms is a process of pursuing the values that sustain and promote its existence and growth. As humans the process of life acquires a completely new dimension. Our ability to reason provides us with options and potentials not otherwise available, among these the ability to determine and choose what our values are. Life itself is a choice we make fully realising that the only alternative, death, is ultimately inevitable.
It is in accepting the inevitability of death that we learn the futility of the fear of death and through this understanding are liberated from its clutches before our time has come knowing we are not at the mercy of the whims of an unjust and wrathful God. Thus liberated we are free to devote our energy and attention to finding meaning in our existence and a reason and purpose for living. Having found a reason and in fulfilling our chosen purpose we provide ourselves with the means for achieving a happiness that has real meaning to us and a value we appreciate by virtue of having earned the right to experience it.
To deceive oneself into believing that life is not all there is to life is to blind oneself to reality and the capacity to find real meaning and value in life is forfeited in the bargain. Having experienced the pleasure of the real thing I know no delusion or fairy tale is a worthy substitute.
to my way of thinking, living forever is a little pointless. A bit like a game of football that doesnt have an end. Its the knowledge that life will one day be over that gives life a meaning. If I honestly thought that I had got forever to accomplish something I dont think that I'd even bother starting.
Mibs uses logic based on his five senses to arrive at the point he occupies and enjoys. He appears to be in the fortunate position of being able to make choices in the pursuit of happiness. Good luck to him.
However, there are many, the majority, who are not in the position to make such choices, and the reasons are usually security or financial. So many people are trapped and unable to get a foot in the door of the house that Mibs lives in.
So, if they believe what Mibs says, they are truly without hope. Depriving people of hope is not, I am sure, Mibs' intention, but nevertheless, that is the effect of his assertions.
I have hope in Jesus Christ, and it would be terrible for me if that hope was taken away from me.
Ah, well, that's enough for now.
However, there are many, the majority, who are not in the position to make such choices, and the reasons are usually security or financial. So many people are trapped and unable to get a foot in the door of the house that Mibs lives in.
So, if they believe what Mibs says, they are truly without hope. Depriving people of hope is not, I am sure, Mibs' intention, but nevertheless, that is the effect of his assertions.
I have hope in Jesus Christ, and it would be terrible for me if that hope was taken away from me.
Ah, well, that's enough for now.
Morning dear Theland, I can't see how you come to your conclusion on what mibs has written. You seem to be saying that he thinks wealth is the way to contentment in this life, but I don't think he is. Although some people don't realise it, life is a series of choices. Many are trapped in jobs they're unhappy with, but if they don't have the opportunity or the courage to take a chance and try to change it, they can at least choose to see their glass as half full rather half empty. After all, there really is always someone worse off. Attitude makes an enormous difference to our perception of our lot in life, and I can't see the point of living with a permanent rain cloud hanging over our heads and waiting to die in the hope of better things in heaven. What a waste of life.
Hi Theland, I know they do, but their outlook determines whether or not they can accept it and be reasonably happy with the more positive aspects of their lives, or whether they continually see themselves as victims trapped in a miserable and dour existence. Believing that Jesus will save them eventually (and they have no guarantee that he will) can only mean they are looking forward to death. What a pity he doesn't do something to save them in this life.
This is very interesting, I agree totally with jollygreen.
If we took the view that this life was just a stepping stone, then what would be the point, except indurance, living a life in anticipation of the next.
I often think if religion was proved to be fake, ie: if an alien came & told us they were our creators. Then I wonder how all the people who have lived their lives ruled by religion would feel. Would they feel betrayed? feel they've wasted their lifes? by worshipping gods that don't exist.
Think of nunns refraining from sex. Think of the restrictions religion puts on muslims, priests etc. I can bet if they discovered the nunns would go and get drunk & get laid, and enjoy what life has to offer. This is life, be a good citizen & enjoy the priviledge.
If we took the view that this life was just a stepping stone, then what would be the point, except indurance, living a life in anticipation of the next.
I often think if religion was proved to be fake, ie: if an alien came & told us they were our creators. Then I wonder how all the people who have lived their lives ruled by religion would feel. Would they feel betrayed? feel they've wasted their lifes? by worshipping gods that don't exist.
Think of nunns refraining from sex. Think of the restrictions religion puts on muslims, priests etc. I can bet if they discovered the nunns would go and get drunk & get laid, and enjoy what life has to offer. This is life, be a good citizen & enjoy the priviledge.
Theland, My �good Christian upbringing� presented me with an alternative early on in life; to believe that as a member of the human race I was inherently evil in thought and in deed and in need of a salvation I had no right to seek or, to take responsibility for my life and actions and live or die if necessary relying solely on my ability to earn my right to exist.
The source of my �sinful� nature, I was told, was my inescapable birthright inherited as a result of the choice made by my earliest ancestor who his creator saw fit to cast out of the garden for eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge after failing to imbue him with his own omniscience. We fell from grace not only from a lack of knowledge but for indulging in the �sin� of human curiosity.
In spite of God�s refusal to take responsibility for the nature he sought to chain me with I chose to take responsibility for my self and to hell with the consequences. If Hell is what I truly deserved then I preferred that to self condemnation for something over which I had no control. If this is what you call evil then between the two of us I know who I consider more worthy of eternal damnation.
This choice to believe that I had the capacity to do good as long as I had the will to realise it came at a heavy price. A child being raised to believe they are inherently evil and that there mind is the play thing of the devil is a profoundly difficult handicap to work around and I have suffered a great deal with the insecurity this instilled in me. Nevertheless I have learned to have some compassion for those that taught me this by understanding that they also were raised to believe that way. This endless cycle of child abuse ends here with me!
The struggle to overcome this evil has given me a value for truth and life that perhaps few can appreciate. I refuse to be a victim of self-loathing with hatred for the good that is possible to those who accept
The source of my �sinful� nature, I was told, was my inescapable birthright inherited as a result of the choice made by my earliest ancestor who his creator saw fit to cast out of the garden for eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge after failing to imbue him with his own omniscience. We fell from grace not only from a lack of knowledge but for indulging in the �sin� of human curiosity.
In spite of God�s refusal to take responsibility for the nature he sought to chain me with I chose to take responsibility for my self and to hell with the consequences. If Hell is what I truly deserved then I preferred that to self condemnation for something over which I had no control. If this is what you call evil then between the two of us I know who I consider more worthy of eternal damnation.
This choice to believe that I had the capacity to do good as long as I had the will to realise it came at a heavy price. A child being raised to believe they are inherently evil and that there mind is the play thing of the devil is a profoundly difficult handicap to work around and I have suffered a great deal with the insecurity this instilled in me. Nevertheless I have learned to have some compassion for those that taught me this by understanding that they also were raised to believe that way. This endless cycle of child abuse ends here with me!
The struggle to overcome this evil has given me a value for truth and life that perhaps few can appreciate. I refuse to be a victim of self-loathing with hatred for the good that is possible to those who accept
Mibs - Was your Christian upringing mainly from your parents or the schools you attended? I'm really interested.
I don't feel as you did, the heavy weight of guilt that you quite rightly condemn. That is a form of child abuse and something I feel strongly about, which is why I am often outspoken against the RC church. True Christianity is not called the "Good News" for nothing, as there is nothing condemnatory in it.
However, thanks for your usual deep and thoughtful response. Still friends?
I don't feel as you did, the heavy weight of guilt that you quite rightly condemn. That is a form of child abuse and something I feel strongly about, which is why I am often outspoken against the RC church. True Christianity is not called the "Good News" for nothing, as there is nothing condemnatory in it.
However, thanks for your usual deep and thoughtful response. Still friends?
Theland, The message contained within the text of the Bible is not �good news� but �old news� (if you�ll pardon the contradiction in terms) to me. I have no desire to delve any further into the particulars in my case of the consequences of the fallacy on which Christianity is based. My personal experiences can only provide hearsay evidence to the facts. It is not the unpleasant details of my personal life but the validity of my beliefs that I wish to offer for your scrutiny. My apologies to all for any discomfort caused by my personal revelations.
Friends/enemies, either/or, us/them, such distinctions should not be made lightly. I am not here to be arbitrarily divisive or to start another war. I am here to discover, reveal and benefit (mutually if possible) from the truth.
To the extent that you embrace your humanity, your essential nature, your life and reason I have no choice, reality dictates that you are my friend. To the extent that you pursue truth and demand justice reality is your friend and only with reality can true friendship coexist.
I do not ask nor would I accept that anyone deny or refuse to defend what they believe. I only ask for the sake of all that each of us examine closely and carefully the basis for, truth in and consequences of what we believe. Without respect and vigilance, truth and friendships can at any moment prove to be the opposite of that which they pretend to be. Only with the moment of death at the finish line of life can the final tally of the virtue, value and meaning that was ones life be fully defined.
If we hope to, as Doc said, �enjoy the ride�, we must first be willing to get on board.
Friends/enemies, either/or, us/them, such distinctions should not be made lightly. I am not here to be arbitrarily divisive or to start another war. I am here to discover, reveal and benefit (mutually if possible) from the truth.
To the extent that you embrace your humanity, your essential nature, your life and reason I have no choice, reality dictates that you are my friend. To the extent that you pursue truth and demand justice reality is your friend and only with reality can true friendship coexist.
I do not ask nor would I accept that anyone deny or refuse to defend what they believe. I only ask for the sake of all that each of us examine closely and carefully the basis for, truth in and consequences of what we believe. Without respect and vigilance, truth and friendships can at any moment prove to be the opposite of that which they pretend to be. Only with the moment of death at the finish line of life can the final tally of the virtue, value and meaning that was ones life be fully defined.
If we hope to, as Doc said, �enjoy the ride�, we must first be willing to get on board.
Mibs - Your and my pursuit of truth have taken us both down different roads, each of which is equally valid for both of us, but objectively suspicious tofeach others chosen route.
I am of the opinion that there is subjective revelation, underpinned by the Bible, which contains far more descriptions of future events than I believe can be reasonably written off as mere coincidence.
A lot of my beliefs cannot be proven to your satisfaction, and your beliefs are only valid if they stand up to objective scrutiny, or so it seems to me. Therefore, my belief is that your beliefs are not based on all of the available criteria, and are therefore lacking in some way.
Quite simply, I believe in God and you don't, and both of us claim validity for the evidence that thus pursuades us of our convictions.
I am of the opinion that there is subjective revelation, underpinned by the Bible, which contains far more descriptions of future events than I believe can be reasonably written off as mere coincidence.
A lot of my beliefs cannot be proven to your satisfaction, and your beliefs are only valid if they stand up to objective scrutiny, or so it seems to me. Therefore, my belief is that your beliefs are not based on all of the available criteria, and are therefore lacking in some way.
Quite simply, I believe in God and you don't, and both of us claim validity for the evidence that thus pursuades us of our convictions.
The Bible makes many ambiguous predictions as to what the future holds, none of which bode well for those striving to make this world a more pleasant and just planet to live on. Assuming such predictions are inevitable because 'God' said so only strengthens the likelihood that they do come to pass by concluding before the fact that any efforts to avert such outcomes is futile.
There is however one clearly defined prediction in the scriptures that brings all others into question. The punishment that awaits those who refuse to believe that the universe was the creation of a �God� who holds contempt for those he created in his own image, cast into this world without the knowledge of how to live, who must first learn to distinguish right from wrong and how to properly choose between alternatives and discover what those alternatives are, is everlasting pain and torment, as if the pain and torment of living one lifetime in a world infected with people who worship this �God� and seek to pass on the dictates of their diseased conscience to all those around them and in every corner of the Earth were not enough.
We are not born in �sin� but in ignorance. This does not alleviate the necessity to learn how to assume responsibility for our own lives and actions or what we should believe and the consequences of those beliefs. Life is not a gift but an opportunity to make life an adventure worth experiencing by having respect and appreciation for the gift of knowledge passed down by all those who achieved a measure of success in this endeavor in the past and knowing the joy of passing on these treasures along with those discovered in ones own lifetime to future generations.
In short, living a life proper to our nature, not seeking unearned rewards beyond the grave, but celebrating the existence of a sentient intelligent being is the point.
There is however one clearly defined prediction in the scriptures that brings all others into question. The punishment that awaits those who refuse to believe that the universe was the creation of a �God� who holds contempt for those he created in his own image, cast into this world without the knowledge of how to live, who must first learn to distinguish right from wrong and how to properly choose between alternatives and discover what those alternatives are, is everlasting pain and torment, as if the pain and torment of living one lifetime in a world infected with people who worship this �God� and seek to pass on the dictates of their diseased conscience to all those around them and in every corner of the Earth were not enough.
We are not born in �sin� but in ignorance. This does not alleviate the necessity to learn how to assume responsibility for our own lives and actions or what we should believe and the consequences of those beliefs. Life is not a gift but an opportunity to make life an adventure worth experiencing by having respect and appreciation for the gift of knowledge passed down by all those who achieved a measure of success in this endeavor in the past and knowing the joy of passing on these treasures along with those discovered in ones own lifetime to future generations.
In short, living a life proper to our nature, not seeking unearned rewards beyond the grave, but celebrating the existence of a sentient intelligent being is the point.
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