Quizzes & Puzzles25 mins ago
the teachings of jesus
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On another thread, Theland challenges me to "read the gospels and see what Jesus was all about"...
Err..I have, and its not pleasant. Jesus wasn't the peace-maker that christians would have us believe. He himself said that he hadnt come to bring peace but a sword and if anyone says that it was metaphorical then I have to ask why he ordered his disiples to buy one (luke 22:36). He was also violent and attacked merchants with a whip, he compared a mother seeking his help to a dog. despite preaching forgiveness, he condems people to eternal retribution and condemmed the Pharisees for not stoning children to death...like father like son I suppose...
We are told to hate our families and jesus cruelly refused to let a man bury his own father.
"Read the gospels and see what jesus was all about"
I have, and Jesus comes across as been a tadge hypocritical...
Err..I have, and its not pleasant. Jesus wasn't the peace-maker that christians would have us believe. He himself said that he hadnt come to bring peace but a sword and if anyone says that it was metaphorical then I have to ask why he ordered his disiples to buy one (luke 22:36). He was also violent and attacked merchants with a whip, he compared a mother seeking his help to a dog. despite preaching forgiveness, he condems people to eternal retribution and condemmed the Pharisees for not stoning children to death...like father like son I suppose...
We are told to hate our families and jesus cruelly refused to let a man bury his own father.
"Read the gospels and see what jesus was all about"
I have, and Jesus comes across as been a tadge hypocritical...
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I wonder how, over the last two thousand years, Christians, other religionists, and even atheist scholars who only consider Jesus a myth, have managed to look at Jesus and agree that he was a man of peace who taught selflessness and love of neighbour?
Yet you swim against the tide of these opinions and smear his reputation, with arguments that are taken totally out of context.
Yet you swim against the tide of these opinions and smear his reputation, with arguments that are taken totally out of context.
Wizard and Theland: I'm not so sure it was Jesus who was hypocritical as much as the evolution of Christianity, where our denominations (and publicists) have created an overly-sanitised image that is far removed from who the man really was. Throughout the centuries, society has gone to great strides to manicure the images of the most famous people in history to our own convenient image. In many ways we can see this in action today as image consultants and public relations firms use their charms to sway public opinion and create wholly inaccurate images of those who stand in the media spotlight.
But we must also accept that a little information can distort the whole and truth of a story. All too often I have sat in churches and listened to a minister take a passage from the Bible and either fail to use it in perspective, or perhaps much worse, use it to intentionally manipulate and control a congregation. I find that quite repugnant.
I�ve briefly touched on this subject in the past. You may find it to be informative.
http://anglicans.blogspot.com/2006/01/anger.ht ml
http://anglicans.blogspot.com/2005/12/suffer-c hildren.html
I wish you well
Fr. Bill
But we must also accept that a little information can distort the whole and truth of a story. All too often I have sat in churches and listened to a minister take a passage from the Bible and either fail to use it in perspective, or perhaps much worse, use it to intentionally manipulate and control a congregation. I find that quite repugnant.
I�ve briefly touched on this subject in the past. You may find it to be informative.
http://anglicans.blogspot.com/2006/01/anger.ht ml
http://anglicans.blogspot.com/2005/12/suffer-c hildren.html
I wish you well
Fr. Bill
Fr Bill - I agree that the image of Jesus has been changed from what the Bible tells us of Him, and we may tend to confuse meekness with weakness. There is a different Jesus for all occasions in this day and age, the chocolate box portrait being just one of many.
"Suffer little children ... " has been prtrayed by illustrators in childrens books in a thousand different ways, often looking like they came straight out of the Disney stable.
Maybe these portrayals serve a purpose, and introduce young minds to Christianity, after all we tell children that Jesus is their friend. How is a friend supposed to be portrayed?
Stripping away the mush from the Jesus myth and finding our Lord is a duty for all Christians surely? But we need to be sensitive to young minds at the same time.
The Jesus preached in many churches is not too demanding, is He?
The truth is so different.
"Suffer little children ... " has been prtrayed by illustrators in childrens books in a thousand different ways, often looking like they came straight out of the Disney stable.
Maybe these portrayals serve a purpose, and introduce young minds to Christianity, after all we tell children that Jesus is their friend. How is a friend supposed to be portrayed?
Stripping away the mush from the Jesus myth and finding our Lord is a duty for all Christians surely? But we need to be sensitive to young minds at the same time.
The Jesus preached in many churches is not too demanding, is He?
The truth is so different.
sadly christianity is a faioth .
but has very little if any fact to prove any of the things that people cling to.
i guess its like a crutch for some folk.
im not religious but dont waste my timne arguing over something that cant be proven .
lifes too short.
why not turn the other cheek eh theland?
im off and i assume its back to the bickering over long dead p�ople.
why not try to get on eh ???
bye
but has very little if any fact to prove any of the things that people cling to.
i guess its like a crutch for some folk.
im not religious but dont waste my timne arguing over something that cant be proven .
lifes too short.
why not turn the other cheek eh theland?
im off and i assume its back to the bickering over long dead p�ople.
why not try to get on eh ???
bye
Theland: You�re quite right. In the rawest of human nature, there are two mantras we subliminally shout: �What�s in it for me?� and �Make me feel good about myself.�
I�m going to use a word that could be considered inflammatory. However, I feel it is a very honest word in our modern day: The �marketing� of religion in our modern day society is homogenised in such a way that it robs us of the ability to think for ourselves. It isn�t just the little children, but the adult populace as well who don�t wish to attend an honest �education-based� church. It can rob them of the �feel-good� factor they�ve come for. I suppose, to put it in a different way: the �marketing� aspect and the educational aspect (as in the Homily) must be designed to reach the broadest of audiences.
This process is reflective of today�s society: We have little time and little interest in becoming religion based road-scholars. What we want is the instant gratification that we can achieve from many different avenues nowadays.
I would also suggest that our sanitised �marketing� view of Christianity has allowed people to hold themselves above those of other faiths, believing that in �their� religion there would never be violence, aggression, anger or wars. Sadly, this is causing the schism to grow wider and wider.
I wish you well
Fr Bill
http://anglicans.blogspot.com/2006/03/were-acc ountable-to-our-children.html
http://anglicans.blogspot.com/2006/06/epidemic -of-cynicism.html
I�m going to use a word that could be considered inflammatory. However, I feel it is a very honest word in our modern day: The �marketing� of religion in our modern day society is homogenised in such a way that it robs us of the ability to think for ourselves. It isn�t just the little children, but the adult populace as well who don�t wish to attend an honest �education-based� church. It can rob them of the �feel-good� factor they�ve come for. I suppose, to put it in a different way: the �marketing� aspect and the educational aspect (as in the Homily) must be designed to reach the broadest of audiences.
This process is reflective of today�s society: We have little time and little interest in becoming religion based road-scholars. What we want is the instant gratification that we can achieve from many different avenues nowadays.
I would also suggest that our sanitised �marketing� view of Christianity has allowed people to hold themselves above those of other faiths, believing that in �their� religion there would never be violence, aggression, anger or wars. Sadly, this is causing the schism to grow wider and wider.
I wish you well
Fr Bill
http://anglicans.blogspot.com/2006/03/were-acc ountable-to-our-children.html
http://anglicans.blogspot.com/2006/06/epidemic -of-cynicism.html
Do you really think that marketing the church is new?
I'm thinking here especially of the sale of Papal indulgences that so outraged Luther.
I'm thinking of the repackaging of the Christianity into the Church of England and the promotion of that around the country, at the point of a sword sometimes.
I'm thinking of the various non-conformists all with their own particular take and angle some like Wesley tirelessly crossing the country to promote his particular brand of Christianity.
Surely the fact of the matter is that Enlightenment and Humanist thought has so infiltrated western culture and thought that "Jesus the peacemaker" is the image most condusive to our current world view.
I doubt that was a strong message in the 17th Century, then people were more concerned with burning witches than bringing peace.
I'm thinking here especially of the sale of Papal indulgences that so outraged Luther.
I'm thinking of the repackaging of the Christianity into the Church of England and the promotion of that around the country, at the point of a sword sometimes.
I'm thinking of the various non-conformists all with their own particular take and angle some like Wesley tirelessly crossing the country to promote his particular brand of Christianity.
Surely the fact of the matter is that Enlightenment and Humanist thought has so infiltrated western culture and thought that "Jesus the peacemaker" is the image most condusive to our current world view.
I doubt that was a strong message in the 17th Century, then people were more concerned with burning witches than bringing peace.
Fr Bill - Just a few months ago, a church, or Diocese), in Manchester was handing out, "Welcome Packs," to churchgoers, in order to attract and retain their membership.
The packs consisted of Fair Trade chocolate, as well as the usual written materials.
This is unashamed marketing of religion, and I do not think it does any good at all.
Surely the purpose of the Church is to preach the gospel of God, and not to tailor its message according to the clientele it expects to attract?
"Good works," in whatever form, are to be applauded, but they should not be promoted surely, in place of preaching the gospel?
It is my belief that if the gospel is preached, then by Gods' grace, good works will follow, and no conscious marketing of religion should be undertaken.
The packs consisted of Fair Trade chocolate, as well as the usual written materials.
This is unashamed marketing of religion, and I do not think it does any good at all.
Surely the purpose of the Church is to preach the gospel of God, and not to tailor its message according to the clientele it expects to attract?
"Good works," in whatever form, are to be applauded, but they should not be promoted surely, in place of preaching the gospel?
It is my belief that if the gospel is preached, then by Gods' grace, good works will follow, and no conscious marketing of religion should be undertaken.
Jake: I don�t recollect suggesting that the �marketing� of Christianity, or any other �religion� for that matter is new. In fact, that �repackaging� that you alluded to continues to this day. Thankfully, it�s no longer done under threat�at least in Anglicanism. However, it is indeed often prevalent in other �faiths.�
Theland: Personally found that marketing exercise to be misguided. Sadly, I understood what their good intention was. But it was woefully sad proof of how often local clergy are not equipped with the essential tools of touching their communities.
This is not a condemnation, nor a criticism, but on the outskirts of my own parish, there�s a priest who has been at the same church for the past thirty years. The number of communicants averages about fifteen each Sunday. In his community, no one knows who he is, never sees him and life moves on. In the next county, there�s a priest whom everyone knows, is active in every conceivable activity there is, has a church that is literally overflowing to the extent they�ve had to apply for permission to build an extension. That priest has the pulse of his community in his heart and not only responds to the community�s needs � he anticipates their needs. I don�t see that as marketing in any form. I see that as a devoted commitment to serve.
I once shared in one of my blogs a comment made to me by my bishop. He said some rather nice things to me that day. But the one thing that stuck with me was his instruction to �get out there and preach.� And he quickly added, �when necessary, use words!�
Fr Bill
Theland: Personally found that marketing exercise to be misguided. Sadly, I understood what their good intention was. But it was woefully sad proof of how often local clergy are not equipped with the essential tools of touching their communities.
This is not a condemnation, nor a criticism, but on the outskirts of my own parish, there�s a priest who has been at the same church for the past thirty years. The number of communicants averages about fifteen each Sunday. In his community, no one knows who he is, never sees him and life moves on. In the next county, there�s a priest whom everyone knows, is active in every conceivable activity there is, has a church that is literally overflowing to the extent they�ve had to apply for permission to build an extension. That priest has the pulse of his community in his heart and not only responds to the community�s needs � he anticipates their needs. I don�t see that as marketing in any form. I see that as a devoted commitment to serve.
I once shared in one of my blogs a comment made to me by my bishop. He said some rather nice things to me that day. But the one thing that stuck with me was his instruction to �get out there and preach.� And he quickly added, �when necessary, use words!�
Fr Bill
Appologies I must have misinterpreted you when you said
"The 'marketing' of religion in our modern society is homoginised in such a way as it robs us of our ability to think for ourselves"
I thought you meant to imply that the marketing was new by your use of quotes.
I can only assume then that you meant then that the historical marketing did not rob people of their ability to think for themselves. in a way that the modern marketing does
However I can't see much historical encouragement of people to try and get people to think for themselves about religion - pulpits aren't well designed for that
Perhaps you can elaborate exactly what you did mean
"The 'marketing' of religion in our modern society is homoginised in such a way as it robs us of our ability to think for ourselves"
I thought you meant to imply that the marketing was new by your use of quotes.
I can only assume then that you meant then that the historical marketing did not rob people of their ability to think for themselves. in a way that the modern marketing does
However I can't see much historical encouragement of people to try and get people to think for themselves about religion - pulpits aren't well designed for that
Perhaps you can elaborate exactly what you did mean
Theland: He was indeed! The man never was that original!
Jake: I think it has only been in the past ten to twenty years that churches (regardless of the denomination) have actually used an acknowledged act of marketing in reaching to society.
I would agree with you regarding the pulpit. I would go so far as to say that in this country�s development, the pulpit was indeed used, certainly methodically and possibly in some cases, maniacally, to cajole, urge, manage, manipulate, and even intimidate congregations to conform to the mother church�s directives.
Today, in many locations around the world, that ethos continues. But that doesn�t mean it occurs everywhere. In fact, I believe this accounts for the large paradigm shift that�s occurring around the world as to how people recognise their spirituality.
I find myself saying to many people that you do not need to be religious in order to be spiritual. The celebration we have in a freezing abandoned chemical factory is no less spiritual than the celebration we hold in the largest Cathedral in the world.
Society: I believe you have the right pulse. Each of us sees in a different way.
I wish you all well
Fr Bill
Jake: I think it has only been in the past ten to twenty years that churches (regardless of the denomination) have actually used an acknowledged act of marketing in reaching to society.
I would agree with you regarding the pulpit. I would go so far as to say that in this country�s development, the pulpit was indeed used, certainly methodically and possibly in some cases, maniacally, to cajole, urge, manage, manipulate, and even intimidate congregations to conform to the mother church�s directives.
Today, in many locations around the world, that ethos continues. But that doesn�t mean it occurs everywhere. In fact, I believe this accounts for the large paradigm shift that�s occurring around the world as to how people recognise their spirituality.
I find myself saying to many people that you do not need to be religious in order to be spiritual. The celebration we have in a freezing abandoned chemical factory is no less spiritual than the celebration we hold in the largest Cathedral in the world.
Society: I believe you have the right pulse. Each of us sees in a different way.
I wish you all well
Fr Bill
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