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Devout catholic
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Just wondering if there are any devout catholics around, if so I would appreciate your opinion, or anyones take on this really.
My partner and I are expecting a baby shorlty (we aren't married) and his mother is a very devout catholic. She rings him up really upset and crying because - we are not married, the child will be a b@stard (her word not mine and said with some venom), we have shamed her infront of her friends. I should point out that this is not soley directed to us, she has other children who live with their partners which upsets her, some of whom have children (more b@stards, again her words), a daughter who is getting divorced (the shame, she should have stuck with it). Basically she is in turmoil over all her children, and anything they have done morally has been against her beliefs
All her children are fine and well adjusted adults (as well adjusted as one can be) but she appears to be more concerned with how their 'antics' are viewed by herself and other people (her peers).
My partner has been more than patient with her and tried to explain that times have changed and that no one is doing this deliberately to hurt her etc but to no avail. Personally, I am getting tired of it and want to grab the phone and tell her to catch herself on, but I know that would definitely not help.
So, can anyone offer any suggestions on how to diffuse this situation (besides all the kids getting married) or what may help to ease this ladys anxiety? I do feel incredibly sorry for her as this is ruining her life but rather than looking for the good (new grandchild) she can only see the bad.
Many thanks, warpig
My partner and I are expecting a baby shorlty (we aren't married) and his mother is a very devout catholic. She rings him up really upset and crying because - we are not married, the child will be a b@stard (her word not mine and said with some venom), we have shamed her infront of her friends. I should point out that this is not soley directed to us, she has other children who live with their partners which upsets her, some of whom have children (more b@stards, again her words), a daughter who is getting divorced (the shame, she should have stuck with it). Basically she is in turmoil over all her children, and anything they have done morally has been against her beliefs
All her children are fine and well adjusted adults (as well adjusted as one can be) but she appears to be more concerned with how their 'antics' are viewed by herself and other people (her peers).
My partner has been more than patient with her and tried to explain that times have changed and that no one is doing this deliberately to hurt her etc but to no avail. Personally, I am getting tired of it and want to grab the phone and tell her to catch herself on, but I know that would definitely not help.
So, can anyone offer any suggestions on how to diffuse this situation (besides all the kids getting married) or what may help to ease this ladys anxiety? I do feel incredibly sorry for her as this is ruining her life but rather than looking for the good (new grandchild) she can only see the bad.
Many thanks, warpig
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You have my sympathy...
I'm afraid there's only one thing that will stop this for her - and that's you getting married, which will mitigate against your apparent 'sin' of being together before wedlock. I should explain that although I'm not Catholic, and will disagree as to the rights and wrongs of everything I'm about to tell you about, i was raised Catholic, and though our family was not devout it's easy to see how you ended up in this situation.
What most people fail to understand is that for a devout Catholic, this is totally unacceptable, and sinful. Unmarried parents - especially women - used to be ostracised and sent away - see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalen_Asylum
This was NOT seen as extreme - it was normality.
Your partner's mother will have been brought up, not just to pass on these values, but will have been educated, brainwashed, and possibly beaten into knowing and repeating the Cathechism by heart. And she will, with every bone in her body, believe that her son's immortal soul is at risk, as is yours and your baby's.
She is not to blame for this - it's the way she was brought up. And it's not a choice for her - it's what she holds true, and will have crept into every aspect of her schooling, home life, friendships, relationships etc. Remember, for every single aspectof life, from birth to death, and everything inbetween, there's a Catholic religious ceremony attached and this will reinforce her beliefs.
I'm afraid there's only one thing that will stop this for her - and that's you getting married, which will mitigate against your apparent 'sin' of being together before wedlock. I should explain that although I'm not Catholic, and will disagree as to the rights and wrongs of everything I'm about to tell you about, i was raised Catholic, and though our family was not devout it's easy to see how you ended up in this situation.
What most people fail to understand is that for a devout Catholic, this is totally unacceptable, and sinful. Unmarried parents - especially women - used to be ostracised and sent away - see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalen_Asylum
This was NOT seen as extreme - it was normality.
Your partner's mother will have been brought up, not just to pass on these values, but will have been educated, brainwashed, and possibly beaten into knowing and repeating the Cathechism by heart. And she will, with every bone in her body, believe that her son's immortal soul is at risk, as is yours and your baby's.
She is not to blame for this - it's the way she was brought up. And it's not a choice for her - it's what she holds true, and will have crept into every aspect of her schooling, home life, friendships, relationships etc. Remember, for every single aspectof life, from birth to death, and everything inbetween, there's a Catholic religious ceremony attached and this will reinforce her beliefs.
...continues
For me, it took years to drop the Catholic guilt that was instilled in me as a child. Your partner's mother has no chance of beating that.
So, what do you do?
You could give in and get married. But be prepared for a life of this - Catholic christening, school, communions, confirmations etc etc etc
Or you could stand up to her, but you need HIS full support. and not only that you need him to do it - if it comes from you you will be the outcast b*tch for life.
I recommend the latter.
For me, it took years to drop the Catholic guilt that was instilled in me as a child. Your partner's mother has no chance of beating that.
So, what do you do?
You could give in and get married. But be prepared for a life of this - Catholic christening, school, communions, confirmations etc etc etc
Or you could stand up to her, but you need HIS full support. and not only that you need him to do it - if it comes from you you will be the outcast b*tch for life.
I recommend the latter.
Just an example btw - 14 years ago - 1994 - I was in a relationship with a girl. She had a cousin in another part of the country who gave birth to a baby in your circumstances.
That baby was 6 months old before my then girlfriend's mother could 'break the news to her', such was the shame she felt that a relative would do such a thing.
Thankfully, this attitude is being consigned to the history books, albeit slowly.
That baby was 6 months old before my then girlfriend's mother could 'break the news to her', such was the shame she felt that a relative would do such a thing.
Thankfully, this attitude is being consigned to the history books, albeit slowly.
Thank you whickerman, everything you have said is as I thought. I do, as much as I can, completely appreciate where she is coming from and am trying to understand how this, along with her other childrens 'behaviour' is torturing her.
To make the situation slightly worse, I am a protestant from NI and my partner a catholic from NI. She fully expects me to change my religion and have my child baptised and brought up a catholic. I am not a religious person perse but would feel a complete fraud in taking or even considering a religion just because it would make someone else happy. And sadly if the truth be told the more she goes on about it, particulary the baptism and spirtual well being of the child, the more I am inclined to dig my heels in. This, I know, is my problem but I do feel like it is emotional blackmail.
She is a good and kind woman and we all know she is hurting but it also saddens me that it appears she fails to see that her comments and remarks hurt us too. But perhaps her faith is such that the hurt she causes sits far below her religious beliefs.
It would appear that there is no easy solution to this as I am not prepared to 'backdown' or 'give in', (I use those terms loosely) and as you have explained, her faith is such that this is instilled in her.
Think I was hoping in vain that there would be something somewhere to bring her round a bit (and myself) but I can see that there may be no half measures on her part and therefore no room for compromise for me.
As an aside, yes the Magdalen Asylums!!!!! Very scary. The aunt of a colleague of mine was sent to one in the late sixties (she was not an unmarried mother, but wayward and the family were having various problems at the time). Apparently they had to 'buy' her out after a few years as they could not get her 'released'. I find it really shocking that the last one only closed in 1996.
To make the situation slightly worse, I am a protestant from NI and my partner a catholic from NI. She fully expects me to change my religion and have my child baptised and brought up a catholic. I am not a religious person perse but would feel a complete fraud in taking or even considering a religion just because it would make someone else happy. And sadly if the truth be told the more she goes on about it, particulary the baptism and spirtual well being of the child, the more I am inclined to dig my heels in. This, I know, is my problem but I do feel like it is emotional blackmail.
She is a good and kind woman and we all know she is hurting but it also saddens me that it appears she fails to see that her comments and remarks hurt us too. But perhaps her faith is such that the hurt she causes sits far below her religious beliefs.
It would appear that there is no easy solution to this as I am not prepared to 'backdown' or 'give in', (I use those terms loosely) and as you have explained, her faith is such that this is instilled in her.
Think I was hoping in vain that there would be something somewhere to bring her round a bit (and myself) but I can see that there may be no half measures on her part and therefore no room for compromise for me.
As an aside, yes the Magdalen Asylums!!!!! Very scary. The aunt of a colleague of mine was sent to one in the late sixties (she was not an unmarried mother, but wayward and the family were having various problems at the time). Apparently they had to 'buy' her out after a few years as they could not get her 'released'. I find it really shocking that the last one only closed in 1996.
oh its torture isnt it, I was brought up with devoutly catholic parents and I suppose I did lead a sheltered life, my father was very strict but what my parents actually did was chase us all away at a young age , we all turned our backs on religion and did our own thing. Fortunately, and surprisingly, we did not get it shoved down our throats too much after we left home but it must have still hurt them. Mum is now more relaxed about it.
For you to get married just to please her would be the wrong thing to do tho, and she would probably only backlash it onto the other siblings and use yourself as an example of what they are 'not' sort of thing.
Maybe she will relax about it like my mother has and live and let live but you cant let her bully you into living the way she wants you to live.
You really dont need this stress right now when the baby is almost here !
I almost phoned my dad one night to tell him how bad he made me feel, but my husband stopped me, and I am glad of that, as now my dad has passed away and I wouldnt have wanted to not be there for him at the end due to an argument.
For you to get married just to please her would be the wrong thing to do tho, and she would probably only backlash it onto the other siblings and use yourself as an example of what they are 'not' sort of thing.
Maybe she will relax about it like my mother has and live and let live but you cant let her bully you into living the way she wants you to live.
You really dont need this stress right now when the baby is almost here !
I almost phoned my dad one night to tell him how bad he made me feel, but my husband stopped me, and I am glad of that, as now my dad has passed away and I wouldnt have wanted to not be there for him at the end due to an argument.
Morning weeal, yes its strange, all the siblings have turned away from their religion, if fact as far as I know none of them attend chapel apart from the births, marriages and deaths scenario.
One of the grandchildren was baptised a catholic but I was told this was done purely to keep the grandmother happy (even tho the childs parents aren't married).
Regarding the scenario with your father, I think that is why my partner is being so patient as if he were to take my approach that would cause irrevocable damage within the family and none of us want that.
Its not easy, is it!
One of the grandchildren was baptised a catholic but I was told this was done purely to keep the grandmother happy (even tho the childs parents aren't married).
Regarding the scenario with your father, I think that is why my partner is being so patient as if he were to take my approach that would cause irrevocable damage within the family and none of us want that.
Its not easy, is it!
Time to start using the religion then m'dear.
Her religious devotion is the most important thing in her life froim the sounds of things and so... as most catholic churches have moved on a little bit do you know where she attends? If I were you I'd probably have a wee word with the priest and ask him to talk to her.
Most catholics find a way of combining modern day life and 2000 year old doctrine... Ok that's a bit mean of me but yesterday my mother attended a funeral of a friend of hers who was openly gay and a devoted catholic himself. The priest was happy to talk about his 35 year relationship and how in love they were (they were a beautiful couple, couldn't imagine two people more perfect for each other). Anyway, my point is, that attitudes have changed and that includes the attitude of priests too. I seriously would havve a word with him.
If religion means this much to her then it's time to start using it to your advantage and a priest might be the one person she'll listen to... Good luck, have a little faith ;0)
Her religious devotion is the most important thing in her life froim the sounds of things and so... as most catholic churches have moved on a little bit do you know where she attends? If I were you I'd probably have a wee word with the priest and ask him to talk to her.
Most catholics find a way of combining modern day life and 2000 year old doctrine... Ok that's a bit mean of me but yesterday my mother attended a funeral of a friend of hers who was openly gay and a devoted catholic himself. The priest was happy to talk about his 35 year relationship and how in love they were (they were a beautiful couple, couldn't imagine two people more perfect for each other). Anyway, my point is, that attitudes have changed and that includes the attitude of priests too. I seriously would havve a word with him.
If religion means this much to her then it's time to start using it to your advantage and a priest might be the one person she'll listen to... Good luck, have a little faith ;0)
I see where you are coming from China Doll, only thing is I dont know enough about the religion (note to self - look into it more) to broach the subject and would not want to make the situation worse. Perhaps I will mention this to my partner as he would be better placed.
The combining of modern life and her beliefs would be the best outcome but I doubt this will happen and as her beliefs are so entrenched any intervention by myself would be a big no, no.
The priest that you described shows an openess toward todays way of life and sounds liberal and free thinking, and perhaps you are right, if she so respects the church then maybe she would take on board what a priest such as this would say. Unfortunately whickermans rather excellent description of 'indoctrination' sounds completely on the ball, not only is this entrenched in her, it would appear that it is given further creedance by her friends who seem to be of the same ilk and i also wonder that given her traditional views would she steer clear of a priest who had a modern outlook.
My partner has tried to reason with her but she seems incapable of opening her mind (again this goes back to whickermans explanation) or of realising that her demands seem ridiculous to us, again, because they are not ridiculous to her.
I really don't know what else to do except ignore it, get on with our lives and possibly change our telephone number! It just saddens me as we want her in our and our childs lives but we will not be held to ransom by it, and I refuse to be further verbally bullied or insulted by her because I dont agree with her belief.
The combining of modern life and her beliefs would be the best outcome but I doubt this will happen and as her beliefs are so entrenched any intervention by myself would be a big no, no.
The priest that you described shows an openess toward todays way of life and sounds liberal and free thinking, and perhaps you are right, if she so respects the church then maybe she would take on board what a priest such as this would say. Unfortunately whickermans rather excellent description of 'indoctrination' sounds completely on the ball, not only is this entrenched in her, it would appear that it is given further creedance by her friends who seem to be of the same ilk and i also wonder that given her traditional views would she steer clear of a priest who had a modern outlook.
My partner has tried to reason with her but she seems incapable of opening her mind (again this goes back to whickermans explanation) or of realising that her demands seem ridiculous to us, again, because they are not ridiculous to her.
I really don't know what else to do except ignore it, get on with our lives and possibly change our telephone number! It just saddens me as we want her in our and our childs lives but we will not be held to ransom by it, and I refuse to be further verbally bullied or insulted by her because I dont agree with her belief.
As much as I love Whicks I suspect I'm a bit younger than him and indeed yourself and as such, having been brought up in a catholic family myself I've seen what it was (Whick's is correct) and what it has become when allowed. And I'm a little more hopeful about the future. I am not religious myself, I actually hate organised religion because to me it's fatally flawed but... for some people it provides support and comfort and makes them more peaceful and loving themselves. I've nothing against that. However with weaker minds it becomes a set of rules and regulations to live by and never, ever deviate from. In my experience it's generally older catholics that have the latter temprement.
When I suggested the priest I did not think that he'd be able to change her mind, she's probably too old and indoctorated in it all but what he does have is more knowledge than you regarding catholicism but also completely understands the sympathies of your mother in law. (Well if he's a decent priest he should have at any rate). Which makes him perfect to mediate.
Possibly he can be the voice of reason that will be listened to which might just curb and pacify her beliefs enough to stop her causing you and your partner such discomfort and indeed stop her own too. He will doubtless not be able to change them but she will have to listen to him because as I said before, knowedge and sympathies.
I really hope you find a way to get round this without anyone getting shut out of anothers lives. See what I mean about organised religion? Where's the humanity eh?! I never did understand it. Good luck.
When I suggested the priest I did not think that he'd be able to change her mind, she's probably too old and indoctorated in it all but what he does have is more knowledge than you regarding catholicism but also completely understands the sympathies of your mother in law. (Well if he's a decent priest he should have at any rate). Which makes him perfect to mediate.
Possibly he can be the voice of reason that will be listened to which might just curb and pacify her beliefs enough to stop her causing you and your partner such discomfort and indeed stop her own too. He will doubtless not be able to change them but she will have to listen to him because as I said before, knowedge and sympathies.
I really hope you find a way to get round this without anyone getting shut out of anothers lives. See what I mean about organised religion? Where's the humanity eh?! I never did understand it. Good luck.
Tell her to get with the times. This is between your fella and you, and you all are handling it. Mother-in-law sounds like she wants to still mother and control her children lives. If you don't put your feet down, and a stop to her bullying interventions soon she will be attempting to make all decisions for you and your family.
I'm laughing here China - you're the 2nd one this week to think me an old codger (hi weeal!)
I've just turned 37!, and believe me, this is not uncommon here in Ireland, especially in the North where warpig's based.
Not only has there been a backtrack on ecumenism in the past few years, since the new pope was elected the more 'traditional' catholicism has reappeared. My generation has musch let it pass, but the older generation and strangely the younger ones are embracing it.
I've just turned 37!, and believe me, this is not uncommon here in Ireland, especially in the North where warpig's based.
Not only has there been a backtrack on ecumenism in the past few years, since the new pope was elected the more 'traditional' catholicism has reappeared. My generation has musch let it pass, but the older generation and strangely the younger ones are embracing it.
-- answer removed --
Oooh sorr Whicks! You actually only have a decade (ish) on me so I feel bad now!! I meant the doctrines you described rather than owt about you.... Looks up from very large hole
Actually I didn't kjnow you were in N. Ireland. it is a bit different there. My father is from there and is a catholic and yes, there's a bit more rigidity. But... the priest at my mums church I think is from an order called the sacred heart (off top of head) and I think they may actually be based in Ireland so take heart. Times will change... I hope!
Bl00dy organised religion! It's just not cricket.
Actually I didn't kjnow you were in N. Ireland. it is a bit different there. My father is from there and is a catholic and yes, there's a bit more rigidity. But... the priest at my mums church I think is from an order called the sacred heart (off top of head) and I think they may actually be based in Ireland so take heart. Times will change... I hope!
Bl00dy organised religion! It's just not cricket.
Sorry China - not from NI, but warpig is (I'm in the south east).
There are certain priests who are in touch with modern life, but have a look here at the trouble they can get into:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/unholy -row-over-mass-invite-to-protestants-103563.ht ml
There are certain priests who are in touch with modern life, but have a look here at the trouble they can get into:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/unholy -row-over-mass-invite-to-protestants-103563.ht ml
Pah... what a load of rubbish.
Well technically I understand it as I seem to recall (Goiing back several years) that we had proddy/catholic masses too but it was a catholic mass with the proddy guy usually doing the homily or something and actually when I was taken to the proddy ones I didn't take communion either. Partly because this is the most significant part of the mass and as a catholic you have to do all your first holy communion stuff and blady blah blah.... I have/had lots of reasons and would take ages to go through all of them but the long and short of it is that i didn't want to be a hypocrite.
Anyway... on another tangent (sorry WP), what never stops amazing me is how organised religion on one hand preaches tolerence, love and respect and yet on the other seems to actively use itself as a sh1tty stick to beat people with.
Well technically I understand it as I seem to recall (Goiing back several years) that we had proddy/catholic masses too but it was a catholic mass with the proddy guy usually doing the homily or something and actually when I was taken to the proddy ones I didn't take communion either. Partly because this is the most significant part of the mass and as a catholic you have to do all your first holy communion stuff and blady blah blah.... I have/had lots of reasons and would take ages to go through all of them but the long and short of it is that i didn't want to be a hypocrite.
Anyway... on another tangent (sorry WP), what never stops amazing me is how organised religion on one hand preaches tolerence, love and respect and yet on the other seems to actively use itself as a sh1tty stick to beat people with.
Sadly your partner's mother will have suffered many years of religious indoctrination and her actions are based on many "arrogant assertions of truth". There is no middle ground here or any hope of compromise: it is black versus white. Your partner's mother sees it as her duty to see that you're both married in a Roman Catholic church and your child is baptised a Catholic (not just a Christian) She would also expect you to get a dispensation to marry from the diocesan bishop since it would be classed as a "mixed marriage".
Thank you all for your replies, they really have been very informative and allowed me to see things clearer from her point of view - not that it changes mine, but at least I have some insight on hers.
I think because I am not religious myself it was difficult for me to understand just how much our actions strike at the very core of her beliefs. As has been said, this is entrenched in her and this is what she truely believes and no amount of reasoning is going to change that, I think teddio summed it up when he stated that 'she sees it as her duty'.
China, you also mentioned 'on the one hand preaches tolerance love and respect and then using the other to beat people with', this is something that has always bugged me too and I feel makes a mockery of the 'good' teachings.
I now understand that because of her indoctrination she cannot change how she feels toward this situation nor are her actions meant to hurt us as she truely believes that she is right and is duty bound to tell us so.
In view of that I will try to be more patient and keep everything in perspective but ultimately she must live her life as she sees fit as must we ours.
Thank you all again, its is much appreciated.
Now, on to this old codger business...................I'm 40, oh, lets not even go there!!!!
Many thanks everyone
warpig
I think because I am not religious myself it was difficult for me to understand just how much our actions strike at the very core of her beliefs. As has been said, this is entrenched in her and this is what she truely believes and no amount of reasoning is going to change that, I think teddio summed it up when he stated that 'she sees it as her duty'.
China, you also mentioned 'on the one hand preaches tolerance love and respect and then using the other to beat people with', this is something that has always bugged me too and I feel makes a mockery of the 'good' teachings.
I now understand that because of her indoctrination she cannot change how she feels toward this situation nor are her actions meant to hurt us as she truely believes that she is right and is duty bound to tell us so.
In view of that I will try to be more patient and keep everything in perspective but ultimately she must live her life as she sees fit as must we ours.
Thank you all again, its is much appreciated.
Now, on to this old codger business...................I'm 40, oh, lets not even go there!!!!
Many thanks everyone
warpig
Buy her a big bottle of gin or whatever her preferred is, give her a big hug or get partner to, tell her you love her even if you don't and carry straight on with your lives. It is her problem to live with. If you are being really naughty, check the family history cos we're all bar-stewards somewhere back along the line! And tell her when you find out.
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