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Question for Atheists and Agnostics
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Lonnie says the site seems to be dying, so here's another question that might generate some interesting discussion. Since we already know the answer the religionists would give, this one is specifically for atheists, agnostics, and anyone who doesn't believe that the universe was created by God.
I believe the universe has always existed in one form or another, but if I'm wrong, how did the substances that formed and created the 'Big Bang' come into being? What are your thoughts?
I believe the universe has always existed in one form or another, but if I'm wrong, how did the substances that formed and created the 'Big Bang' come into being? What are your thoughts?
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I don't know Naomi. When you start getting into the origins of the universe, it strikes me that the science becomes as much about belief and 'mumbo jumbo' as the religion. They're just making things up to try and explain the inexplicable. (The scientists get as angry and indignant as the religionists when you say things like that, but who cares).
We're like fleas sitting on a hippo's bum, trying to work out where the hippo came from. We'll never know what the hippo is, let alone that it's sitting on a planet circling the sun in a galaxy.
We're like fleas sitting on a hippo's bum, trying to work out where the hippo came from. We'll never know what the hippo is, let alone that it's sitting on a planet circling the sun in a galaxy.
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OK the thing is people tend to look for answers that they can relate to their own experience.
We see this a lot - people described the atom at one time as " the plum pudding model" they describe the expansion of the Universe in terms of raisens in a loaf of bread rising in the oven.
But the conditions in the big bang, the energies, the density and gravitational forces are so outside of everyday experience that things start to happen that we think of as weird and ludwig calls "mumbo jumbo"
It's like early africans having snow described to them or the first Europeans trying to describe a kangeroo to their countrymen.
Anyway to answer your question - we walk around the place and we don't expect things to pop out of nowhere - we even have physical laws that say mass & energy is conserved.
Actually they do particles and anti-partices flash in and out of existance all the time but so quickly it's almost impossible to show the effect.
Thing is with the creation of the universe all bets are off. The normal physical laws that apply within this Universe don't apply to it's creation.
Don't fall into the trap of picturing the big bang as a huge star exploding into a void.
The big bang was the creation of matter but also of physical space and even time.
So in a sense the Universe has always been here because there was no time "before" it (having trouble picturing the kangeroo yet?)
Our very English language breaks down at this point - words like "How" "Why" verbs all imply passage of time - cause followed by effect None of which now holds.
That's why we need a new language - maths
We'll probably never know the detail as we can't break out of our Universe to observe it from the outside but CP Snow's words come to mind "The Universe is not only stranger than we imagine but stranger than we can imagine"
We see this a lot - people described the atom at one time as " the plum pudding model" they describe the expansion of the Universe in terms of raisens in a loaf of bread rising in the oven.
But the conditions in the big bang, the energies, the density and gravitational forces are so outside of everyday experience that things start to happen that we think of as weird and ludwig calls "mumbo jumbo"
It's like early africans having snow described to them or the first Europeans trying to describe a kangeroo to their countrymen.
Anyway to answer your question - we walk around the place and we don't expect things to pop out of nowhere - we even have physical laws that say mass & energy is conserved.
Actually they do particles and anti-partices flash in and out of existance all the time but so quickly it's almost impossible to show the effect.
Thing is with the creation of the universe all bets are off. The normal physical laws that apply within this Universe don't apply to it's creation.
Don't fall into the trap of picturing the big bang as a huge star exploding into a void.
The big bang was the creation of matter but also of physical space and even time.
So in a sense the Universe has always been here because there was no time "before" it (having trouble picturing the kangeroo yet?)
Our very English language breaks down at this point - words like "How" "Why" verbs all imply passage of time - cause followed by effect None of which now holds.
That's why we need a new language - maths
We'll probably never know the detail as we can't break out of our Universe to observe it from the outside but CP Snow's words come to mind "The Universe is not only stranger than we imagine but stranger than we can imagine"
ludwig, love it!! How funny. :o)
I asked the question because I don't believe that anything comes from absolutely nothing, and the only way I can get past it is to believe that the universe has always existed, albeit perhaps at some time, as a pin-prick of condensed matter, and so I wondered how others who feel that there is no great creator, rationalise it. Of course, it's all hypothetical, and agnostics amongst us may come to the conclusion that there is, indeed, a great creator, but whatever opinions come out of this question, I'd be interested to know other people's thoughts on it.
no.knowledge - who knows? It's one of life's great mysteries.
I asked the question because I don't believe that anything comes from absolutely nothing, and the only way I can get past it is to believe that the universe has always existed, albeit perhaps at some time, as a pin-prick of condensed matter, and so I wondered how others who feel that there is no great creator, rationalise it. Of course, it's all hypothetical, and agnostics amongst us may come to the conclusion that there is, indeed, a great creator, but whatever opinions come out of this question, I'd be interested to know other people's thoughts on it.
no.knowledge - who knows? It's one of life's great mysteries.
Jake, frankly because I can't get my head around the idea that something can come from absolutely nothing. We've had a discussion on the particles and anti particles flashing in and out of existence before, but I still maintain that whilst they may appear to do that, there must be an explanation that is currently eluding us. I'm convinced that where scientific progress is concerned, we are in our infancy, but when new discoveries come to light, which they no doubt will, there will be an explanation for this.
Yes, I believe that time can stop.
Yes, I believe that time can stop.
Perhaps it is a combination of the steady state theory and a big bang �event�? The universe was already there but some cataclysmic event in its continual (or cyclical) expansion caused the large pop.
I suppose the debate would be whether the nothing was just before the big bang, or whether the nothing was even before the universe before the big bang came about.
I suppose the debate would be whether the nothing was just before the big bang, or whether the nothing was even before the universe before the big bang came about.
Perhaps it was one of those hedonistic nights which resulted in a terrible headache for a deity and a vague recollection of doing something they shouldn't have and then rolling over and having it confirmed that they'd just started something they really shouldn't have...
Works for me as a theory anyway.
Works for me as a theory anyway.
All well and good but everything posted so far is OPINION . . nothing more, nothing less.
The one thing that is absolute fact is that we will never know for sure what happened. You are all talking in human terms: 'matter' etc What if it was some 'bloke' (I use the human expression) sitting on planet zog who did something with something for which there is no known human equivalent and OOOPS, there was a big bang. This airy fairy explanation is 100% as plausible as the most learned theological or scientific theory. Why? Because it is beyond our comprehension, that's why. Lets face it: Your 'bible', whichever flavour you subscribe to, is just a convenient collection of stories (anecdotal evidence if you like) that was put together over centuries, passed down from father to son, to try and explain the unexplainable. That does not make it fact. Therefore: Religion doesn't have the answer, only an opinion.
Now, before the inevitable thunderbolt hits (be it from the east, west or the heavens) can I also blow apart the scientific explanation:
So there we were (oops, already asuming that there was something existing) sitting in what would soon become known as space when 2 things (be they gas, atoms, or gronks from the afore mentioned planet zog) crashed into each other to cause a big bang. So what created the two things? (To spare you an infinitely looooonnnng series of questions let's just stop there.) Being infinite, there is no getting to the start. Therefore: Science doesn't have the answer either, only an opinion. Admittedly it's a bit more believable than stories of a naked bloke in a garden but it still relies on there being something at the start . . . . . but who made it?
There is no arguing with any of the above. Neither view stands up to rational discussion therefore We win. Lets go down the pub and celebrate!
PS I only came on this site to find out why my car is vibrating? Funny old world
The one thing that is absolute fact is that we will never know for sure what happened. You are all talking in human terms: 'matter' etc What if it was some 'bloke' (I use the human expression) sitting on planet zog who did something with something for which there is no known human equivalent and OOOPS, there was a big bang. This airy fairy explanation is 100% as plausible as the most learned theological or scientific theory. Why? Because it is beyond our comprehension, that's why. Lets face it: Your 'bible', whichever flavour you subscribe to, is just a convenient collection of stories (anecdotal evidence if you like) that was put together over centuries, passed down from father to son, to try and explain the unexplainable. That does not make it fact. Therefore: Religion doesn't have the answer, only an opinion.
Now, before the inevitable thunderbolt hits (be it from the east, west or the heavens) can I also blow apart the scientific explanation:
So there we were (oops, already asuming that there was something existing) sitting in what would soon become known as space when 2 things (be they gas, atoms, or gronks from the afore mentioned planet zog) crashed into each other to cause a big bang. So what created the two things? (To spare you an infinitely looooonnnng series of questions let's just stop there.) Being infinite, there is no getting to the start. Therefore: Science doesn't have the answer either, only an opinion. Admittedly it's a bit more believable than stories of a naked bloke in a garden but it still relies on there being something at the start . . . . . but who made it?
There is no arguing with any of the above. Neither view stands up to rational discussion therefore We win. Lets go down the pub and celebrate!
PS I only came on this site to find out why my car is vibrating? Funny old world
If the normal physical laws don't apply to the creation of the big bang can they, surely, can also be applied to God?
Or was that the scientific equivalent of shut up?
Naomi make the point of something being made out of nothing but reall it's something so immense being made out of nothing that baffles everyone, I've seen it said on here that "we only don't know what happened before the big bang" after it we have lots of theories but if the bang is wrong so is everything else, the fruit of the poison tree so to speak.
Or was that the scientific equivalent of shut up?
Naomi make the point of something being made out of nothing but reall it's something so immense being made out of nothing that baffles everyone, I've seen it said on here that "we only don't know what happened before the big bang" after it we have lots of theories but if the bang is wrong so is everything else, the fruit of the poison tree so to speak.
With respect to Jake's knowledge, which is far superior to mine on this subject, he's just demonstrated exactly the point I was making.
His assertion that 'The universe is not only stranger than we imagine but stranger than we can imagine' is simply the scientists way of saying 'god moves in mysterious ways' - a kind of catch all rebuttal to any awkward questions like 'Why does god allow bad things?, or 'How can you be in 2 places at one time?'.
His assertion that 'The universe is not only stranger than we imagine but stranger than we can imagine' is simply the scientists way of saying 'god moves in mysterious ways' - a kind of catch all rebuttal to any awkward questions like 'Why does god allow bad things?, or 'How can you be in 2 places at one time?'.
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