Reasons for God's existence

[chakka35]

In another discussion on this site keyplus90 claimed that...

Logically there are more reasons to believe that [God] exists than otherwise.

I'd be genuinely interested to learn from keyplus or anyone else what those reasons are.

To save time and space I'd be grateful if we could stick to reasons and not mere beliefs.

[Octavius]

No reason would ever satiate your overzealous antitheism. But why should it? I can accept a person�s reasoning for non existence and/or decision not to believe in any God, even if I (internally) disagree with that view.

I presage this is just a soap-box opportunity for you to repeat yourself again.

[joggerjayne]

God exists because, if He did not exist, then Man would create Him.

[sqad617]

jayne, if you are saying that man created God, then you are correct, but one cannot say that that proves there is one.
I presume that you mean, God, the Father and the Holy ghost.
some prople need the prescence of a God and others do not.

Any bets on Saturdays match.

[joggerjayne]

According to The Life Of Pi, God both exists, and does not.

And both are correct.

Is there a match on Saturday? I'd got it into my head for some reason that there was no game this weekend.

[Octavius]

I'm game if you are.

[sqad617]

Octavius LOL LOL
jayne...All Blacks.Saturday.

P.S Hate being thought of as "ancient"

[naomi24]

Chakka, thanks for asking this. I would like to hear the logical reasons too.

[joggerjayne]

Sqad ...

Sorry. I thought you were talking about Brighton FC.

=0(

[Octavius]

Oh Dear Sweet Lord Jesus, God in Heaven above, nobody talks about Brighton FC. And there is a logical reason for that.

[chakka35]

Thank you,Octavius for your usual negative comment from the sidelines. I don't suppose you could possibly bring yourself to answer the question, could you?

You know -er - sort of - er -maybe starting with "The reasons are...." or something like that.

If you read the question again I'm sure you'll get the idea.

I think we're going to have to be patient, naomi

[jake-the-peg]

Thomas Aquineas lists 5

1 - FIRST MOVER: Some things are in motion, anything moved is moved by another, and there can't be an infinite series of movers. So there must be a first mover (a mover that isn't itself moved by another). This is God.

2 - FIRST CAUSE: Some things are caused, anything caused is caused by another, and there can't be an infinite series of causes. So there must be a first cause (a cause that isn't itself caused by another). This is God.

3 - NECESSARY BEING: Every contingent being at some time fails to exist. So if everything were contingent, then at some time there would have been nothing -- and so there would be nothing now -- which is clearly false. So not everything is contingent. So there is a necessary being. This is God.

4 - GREATEST BEING: Some things are greater than others. Whatever is great to any degree gets its greatness from that which is the greatest. So there is a greatest being, which is the source of all greatness. This is God.

5 - INTELLIGENT DESIGNER: Many things in the world that lack intelligence act for an end. Whatever acts for an end must be directed by an intelligent being. So the world must have an intelligent designer. This is God.


1 to 3 are essentially the same - they actually dodge the issue entirely because there is no reason to believe that this first entity is a conscious being anything like what we imageine as "God"

4 is quite humerous - a bit like a bunch of lads rating girls as a "7" or a "9" - nonesense

5 Well it was pre-Darwin there's little I see that acts for an end.

But then he's moregiving people reasons to believe than presenting logical aruments that would bear scutiny - I think you could be executed for being an theist in his day

[chakka35]

Yes, Jake. What's more, Aquinas lists them as 'proofs'!

I await keyplus90 and his reasons. We should all be interested in them when they arrive.

[jackthehat]

There is probably something for everyone here...
http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

[keyplus90]

First of all sorry for the delay as I haven�t been around today and I can see many people even take that as inability to answer. Then I am not a scientist nor I have any deep knowledge of the subject. I can copy and paste things but that is not the point. One thing is pretty clear that to know and to believe in things as human we depend upon our given six senses. And we all know that depending upon these how limited we are. We might be OK to prove a physical being but not a
Transcendental Being.

First of all let me make it clear that being a Muslim I am not worried about science or evolution as these things will only help clear people�s misconception and that is the reason why in Quran Allah encourages people to gain knowledge and look for the truth. So it does not ask people to close their eyes and believe unlike many other religions. Scientists are just discovering things and not creating.

Some one said once that if you want to find God then he is within yourself or if you would like not to accept his presence then he does not have to prove himself to you as that neither increase nor decrease his power or position. My laptop was made by Toshiba, mouse by proline, TV by LG, shoes by Clark. Or are they? Because Toshiba, proline, LG and clark we know because it is written on them. Had that not been written then how would we have known? Then does Toshiba, Proline etc exist. No these are artificial names. Can you imagine all these things just appeared by coincidence? Can any one say yes? Surely no one because we know Toshiba, LG etc. But when it comes to whole Universe, human and all the things then we imagine that it is just a coincidence, only because our intellect can not gather it. And the reality of our intellect is that I recently bought that ultrasonic pest

cont:

[keyplus90]

Cont:

repellent and what is ultrasonic? Apparently a sound that human can�t hear but insects can. So for us that does not exist

If you think about it then its very simple however if you do not want to then I am not forcing any one to believe in what I believe nor I am here to win any battle.

I know people do not like links but still this may help, and in the end if I do not answer soon enough then accept my apologies as my wife is in hospital and I am not getting enough time to pop in.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?p agename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAb outIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1148292923603

[Octavius]

I think in there somewhere keyplus you have provided a very astute answer and I wish your wife well.

The crux of this issue seems to be that you chakka feel you are being forced to believe in God, and for that to be justified you need logical reason and proof. You know, because you have said it often enough, that no amount of reasoning or proof will be given any credence, because it is a basis of faith.

As religionists see it, their belief systems tell them that it is logical in this world to believe in a spiritual entity or a deity, and in a heaven/hell afterlife. The reasons may include comfort, reassurance, or just a lifelong commitment to the ethereal which could never be explained logically to someone whose logical reasoning doesn�t recognise any form of spirituality.

I see no logical reason for people to believe that the physical form of ghosts exist. Their logical reasoning is that they have seen them with their own eyes. In my mind this carries as much foundation in truth as though I were to say I know God exists because I have seen him with my own eyes, or he has spoken to me. They can�t prove I have or haven�t, and I can not prove whether they have or haven�t seen a ghost.

So the purpose of your question? Is it to explain to us again that belief in fairies and Father Christmas is illogical, because there is no reason to? Everyone has different reasons for everything they do, but they do not always have to conform to a logical explanation. I can find no logical reason why anyone would enjoy the wailing of Mariah Carey, yet other people do. It is just a contradiction of logical reasoning that makes people and life so varied and interesting.

[jake-the-peg]

Octavious says belief in God is justified by faith.

Would anybody attempt to drive a car by faith?

No?

Then why run your life by it?

Surely attempting to drive a car by faith alone is no more testing God than running your life by faith?

The only difference is that the former always ends in a very physical demonstration that faith doesn't work.

I might as well say that pencils are magic and will protect you if you always have one behind your ear and truely believe in it.

Any bad thing that happens to you is then your own lack of faith in the magic pencil

[Octavius]

�Octavius says belief in God is justified by faith.

Did I use those words?

I have every faith in my ability to drive safely. If I don�t drive safely then this incongruous to my faith in my ability to drive safely, therefore I have abandoned that faith and may well pay the consequences.

I might as well say that pencils are magic and will protect you if you always have one behind your ear and truely believe in it.

You could, many beliefs and many superstitions also have the similar basis - especially ones invlving nature. Some will think you are a nutter, some will think it is your right to believe that is the case and leave you be, providing the pencil is not used to inflict any harm on someone else.

[The Sherman]

Octavious Im trying hard to get my words accross so if this post makes no sense then forgive me now! following on from what you said about magic pencils -
What if by association with other people that have magic pencils some use it for harm? what if you as a magic pencil holder give them weight in their arguments?
does that make sense?
the evil magic pencil holders can claim strength in numbers (almost) and the fact that they have more believers will almost certainly encourage and strengthen their faifth and beliefs!
Even thought they don't actually believe the same thing-

as its based on faith your kind of all subjecting yourself to labelling that can be used as weight in their argument for some very horrible acts?

Gosh i hope that is not a mad ramble!!!!!