ChatterBank23 mins ago
I dont want to spark up a massive debate but...
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The programme on last night about James Bulger got me thinking - loads of really bad and sick things happen everyday - things we couldn't even imagine! Alot performed by adults with fully developed minds and conscious so when religious people are asked WHY did god allow this to happen - FREE WILL is what they answer - Ok i guess fair enough. But What about 2 children doing such a thing to another child? They coungered up a plan - went to a Mall - took a little boy - walked for 3 miles! - Tied him to a rail way track and watched him die? Where was god when they made this plan - when they walked the 3 miles passing people and being let go - when they stood and watched a baby die? Im not out to cause and argument or anything like that Im genuinely interested in peoples answers x
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I am not religious at all although when I am in a church for an occasion like a wedding, funeral etc I always come out feeling kind of 'lifted' but things like the above make me think there can't be a god or it would not have happened. You hear when things happen to older people sometimes believer may say 'that was come uppance for something bad they had done in their lives' but what could little James have possibly done to deserve this. Too many horrible things are happening all the time.
A few months ago I saw a bloke on a BBC discussion programme saying that the Devil is to blame for all the evil things in the world. I thought, what a pathetic thing for a man in his 50s to say. The plain fact is, there are people who do nasty things. We may never know what causes them to do it - we'll probably never understand why those boys killed Jamie Bulger - but to label it as "evil" or blame "the Devil" doesn't help, it's just a way of not having to think about it. That's why I dislike the lazy use of that word "evil" in the media to describe Karen Matthews etc - it effectively closes down all further thought about why they do these things - otherwise we might have a better chance of understanding and therefore preventing it.
None of us would say outright that God killed this child, but asking �Why did God allow this to happen�? is a question we would all ask when tragedy occurs. Inevitably we assume that He shares some responsibility for it, so we must also assume that Satan, the devil or evil generally shares equal or more blame. Evil caused it, God did not prevent it. This is a natural reaction.
If you were sitting at a table with two friends sitting opposite you, say Janet & John. Janet sees a person creeping up behind you with a baseball bat and turns to John and asks �how is your family?� When you wake up you will probably blame Janet for the assault as much or more as the person who had the bat.
So who do we blame? God doesn�t actively control people, as you have mentioned, we have free will. Some people believe that God controls every aspect of their lives and predetermines everything. I disagree with that, for to do so would mean that He controlled these two boys to commit murder. The Bible says somewhere that Gods justice allows people to experience the consequences of their disobedience. A sort of get out clause I guess, but there really is nor can there be any satisfactory answer in the face of such tragedies. We can only blame the people who carried out this atrocious act, and assume that the �why� is beyond our understanding.
I also watched the programme with sadness, revulsion and fear. I had not really appreciated 15 years ago how evil these boys intended to be. They set out that day to murder a child, the first young boy was fortunate, and Jamie was just the next opportunity to them. I feel for the parents and all the witnesses who saw them along the 3 mile walk who must be asking themselves (albeit incorrectly), how did they �allow� this to happen.
If you were sitting at a table with two friends sitting opposite you, say Janet & John. Janet sees a person creeping up behind you with a baseball bat and turns to John and asks �how is your family?� When you wake up you will probably blame Janet for the assault as much or more as the person who had the bat.
So who do we blame? God doesn�t actively control people, as you have mentioned, we have free will. Some people believe that God controls every aspect of their lives and predetermines everything. I disagree with that, for to do so would mean that He controlled these two boys to commit murder. The Bible says somewhere that Gods justice allows people to experience the consequences of their disobedience. A sort of get out clause I guess, but there really is nor can there be any satisfactory answer in the face of such tragedies. We can only blame the people who carried out this atrocious act, and assume that the �why� is beyond our understanding.
I also watched the programme with sadness, revulsion and fear. I had not really appreciated 15 years ago how evil these boys intended to be. They set out that day to murder a child, the first young boy was fortunate, and Jamie was just the next opportunity to them. I feel for the parents and all the witnesses who saw them along the 3 mile walk who must be asking themselves (albeit incorrectly), how did they �allow� this to happen.
God exists because we need Him to exist. If He didn't exist, we would create Him.
The Gods of primitive tribal cultures also existed, because they, too, needed their Gods to exist.
When Jamie Bulger was taken by those boys, for many people, God did not exist. After we found out what had happened, we needed God to exist, because we needed to ask ourselves how He could have let it happen. We would have looked silly asking that question of someone who didn't exist.
Therein lies the answer ... God did not "let the incident happen" because, on the afternoon, for those boys, and for many of us, He did not exist. But He does now.
The Gods of primitive tribal cultures also existed, because they, too, needed their Gods to exist.
When Jamie Bulger was taken by those boys, for many people, God did not exist. After we found out what had happened, we needed God to exist, because we needed to ask ourselves how He could have let it happen. We would have looked silly asking that question of someone who didn't exist.
Therein lies the answer ... God did not "let the incident happen" because, on the afternoon, for those boys, and for many of us, He did not exist. But He does now.
This is why I think it's dangerous to think of these acts in terms of gods & devils - we need to examine why two boys would do this. There are probably lots of complex reasons underlying it but to say some people are just evil is unhelpful. Something in their minds, perhaps elements too of their background & upbringing, meant they were not equipped to see how wrong it was or to stop themselves.
One of the most upsetting cases of recent times was when the goth Sophie Lancaster was punched, stamped and kicked to death by a gang of young men because she was "different" - she looked, dressed, spoke and acted different from them, so they attacked her. And when one of them was arrested, his mum just laughed and didn't take it seriously - clear signs that the boy's upbringing resulted in him turning out the way he did, and there were probably other causes too. There always are - but if you're religious and go looking for reasons that invoke god & the devil, you will struggle because that way of thinking doesn't allow for reasons you can easily accept.
One of the most upsetting cases of recent times was when the goth Sophie Lancaster was punched, stamped and kicked to death by a gang of young men because she was "different" - she looked, dressed, spoke and acted different from them, so they attacked her. And when one of them was arrested, his mum just laughed and didn't take it seriously - clear signs that the boy's upbringing resulted in him turning out the way he did, and there were probably other causes too. There always are - but if you're religious and go looking for reasons that invoke god & the devil, you will struggle because that way of thinking doesn't allow for reasons you can easily accept.
Backdrifter - your comments about labelling things 'evil' are exactly on the nose, sir.
People want a nice simple explanation that distances them from too much self-examination. 'They're evil' provides them with precisely that, and they call for the death penalty or go away happy or whatever it is they want to do, just so long as they don't have to confront the fact that their might be factors for which we are (collectively) responsible that contributed, or whether there is anything which might save the next Jamie Bulger.
Assuming that the perpetrators were "evil" removes the necessity to confront these unpleasant but necessary questions. They were not. They were products of neglect and poverty and nature and nurture. That they were these things removes not an iota of culpability but it would be better for society at large if we actually learned from such tragedies rather than absolve ourselves of resposibility to do so.
People want a nice simple explanation that distances them from too much self-examination. 'They're evil' provides them with precisely that, and they call for the death penalty or go away happy or whatever it is they want to do, just so long as they don't have to confront the fact that their might be factors for which we are (collectively) responsible that contributed, or whether there is anything which might save the next Jamie Bulger.
Assuming that the perpetrators were "evil" removes the necessity to confront these unpleasant but necessary questions. They were not. They were products of neglect and poverty and nature and nurture. That they were these things removes not an iota of culpability but it would be better for society at large if we actually learned from such tragedies rather than absolve ourselves of resposibility to do so.
Waldo, I agree. My use of the term evil was to describe their actions, not essentially them. But one only needs to read the last moments of James� life in Wikipedia, to see how chilling their intentions were and how tragically & brutally they were carried out.
That they both came from broken homes is no doubt a factor. That one of them grew up in a home with 7 other children where mum was an alcoholic, dad violently and sexually abused them all, and all the children beat and tortured each other. The other boy came from a broken family all with learning difficulties, the mother was suicidal and suffered depression and often abandoned the children for long periods of time. He had previously tried to strangle another child at school.
But yet this does not provide reason enough for me to accept that only nurturing was to blame. They must have had some element of inherent �evil� within them from birth, no? If so, how can we learn from this? If not, then are they really culpable or is it circumstantial? I presume this was the basis of their release - which I believe is wrong - because part of me cannot accept that the wickedness within can truly dissolve. Contradictory to my forgiving nature I know, but its how I feel. Maybe having a child of nearly two has bought the case closer to home than ever before.
That they both came from broken homes is no doubt a factor. That one of them grew up in a home with 7 other children where mum was an alcoholic, dad violently and sexually abused them all, and all the children beat and tortured each other. The other boy came from a broken family all with learning difficulties, the mother was suicidal and suffered depression and often abandoned the children for long periods of time. He had previously tried to strangle another child at school.
But yet this does not provide reason enough for me to accept that only nurturing was to blame. They must have had some element of inherent �evil� within them from birth, no? If so, how can we learn from this? If not, then are they really culpable or is it circumstantial? I presume this was the basis of their release - which I believe is wrong - because part of me cannot accept that the wickedness within can truly dissolve. Contradictory to my forgiving nature I know, but its how I feel. Maybe having a child of nearly two has bought the case closer to home than ever before.
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