The Promised Land

[naomi24]

If there never had been a Promised Land, would the world be a better place?

[Whickerman]

Interesting... Assuming there'd be no Arab Israeli conflict, there's several possibilities.
1 - no conflict in the middle east, although violence among Islamic factions is far from unknown.
2 - the Iraqi conflict (or some other) could still have happened, but the entire middle east could focus against the US and become some sort of regional superpower?
3 - the Iranians and others develop nukes
4 - the Jews are left after ww2 as a displaced population, causing its own problems
5 - there was talk of moving the Jews to Africa after ww2 - would the Israeli issue be a Saharan issue now?

[naomi24]

Without a Promised Land, like people of other religions, Jews would have integrated naturally over time into countries all over the world - as many of them have done. European Jews were, and are, just that - Europeans - so those displaced by WWII would surely have relocated to other countries - as indeed many of them did. Now we don't have displaced Jews - we have displaced Palestinians, and an enormous problem that the world cannot solve - and all because of the so-called Promised Land.

[123everton]

Jews were well assimilated prior to WW2 it was only Facism that displaced them, without Hitler we would'nt have any displaced Jews and political Zionism may have fizzled out because of the British mandate in Palestine and no costly wars and deals with the U.S to break our imperial will and the ability to maintain our imperial strength.

[Lonnie]

German Jews, prior to the second world war, counted themselves as German, and look what happened to them, same for Russia, and quite a few European countries, no matter which country outside Israel a Jew lives, he may appear to be accepted, but very rarely is.

The Idea of a Promised land is good, but it'd never work, it'd be populated by humans, a surefire recipe for disaster, the same goes for anywhere man leaves his footprint.

[Teddio]

The idea of the Jewish people coming together and living in the Promised Land was always destined to end in tears. There has always been a spiritual and physical link between the Jews and Palestine so they were always destined to end up there. Where could they have gone? There isn't a square yard of land on this planet that isn't sovereign territory or in dispute so zionism was always going to cause trouble. The USA could have donated Baja California as the Land of Milk and Honey after WW2 and kept everyone happy!

[Clanad]

... Except the Baja belongs to Mexico... and having been there many times, no honey, little milk but the Huachinago en Veracruz Sauce are the best!

[Teddio]

Having lived in California for most of my life I was aware of that. I just assumed the Mexicans wouldn't have minded!

[naomi24]

Everyone, except Whicker, seems to be missing the point I'm trying to get across, so I'll try again. Imagine that thousands of years ago, the Jews had never ever been singled out for special treatment by God. If a land had never been promised, the Jews would have been no different to anyone else and would have naturally integrated into the rest of the world, as has everyone else. Perhaps the reason they have been persecuted over the centuries is, in part, because they consider themselves to be different simply because they believe they are God's chosen people, and they claim a special land was promised to them.

I want to say that this question is meant in no way as a slight upon Jewish people. I'm simply looking at the troubles in the middle east and am trying to see this from a hypothetical point of view. If I'm not putting it too well, my apologies. (I've also got a dog competing against the computer for my attention - and it's not easy!).

[Ice.Maiden]

I'm not too well up on biblical history, but wasn't it Abraham who took two wives - the first who didn't appear to be able to have children, but his second one did? Then the first wife had a child, so many years after marriage, and so there was dispute as to who was the rightful successor, since the first wife was thought to have precedence over any others. Wasn't Isaak the first-born? I ask this, because it seems that the warring started from there, and then the resulting religious disputes spilled over into who "owned" which land, etc., etc, which's carried on to this day. Perhaps someone could enlighten me on this. I thought that Ruth was a Jew, but was accepted by the "Arab" side, and that the promised Land thing came about years later.

[beso]

Most of the fighting in "The Holy Lands" is about the illegal Israeli occupation of lands which were invaded after the formation of Israel.

They argue that God granted them this "Promised Land" so they have every right to settle there.

Given that their forefathers massacred most of the people who lived in the "Promised Land" before their arrival and enslaved the rest, it is little wonder that they are hated by the Arabs, especially when they still teach the glory of their genocides as evidence of their own divinity.

[123everton]

Erm no, Jews did'nt appear to view themselves as special in 1930s Germany this is evinced by the fact that almost half the marriages involving Jews in 1933(?) were to non-Jews, although I don't know how many converted after marriage.
They also tried to come to England in 1945 but were refused they tried to go home to Warsaw and there was riots to send them away and they tried to go to America and were similarly turned away.
Where else could they go? Nobody else seemed to want them.

[terambulan]

Ice.....See Genesis 16/17. Abraham had a son, Ishmael with his servant, Hagar, because his wife was barren. The women fought so God made Abrahams 1st wife, Sarai, fertile and she bore Isaac. When Isaac was born Sarai drove out Hagar & son Ishmael.

Muslims follow Ishmael and Isaac are step brothers. Muslims revere Ishmael & Jews revere Isaac. and men still shed blood over 2 women's spat!

[terambulan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_o f_Palestine#World_War_I

Todays 'Israel' is land Laurence of Arabia captured from the Turks in 1917s WW1 era. Palestine was part of Brit Empire and Brits split the land so Jews could occupy land as per biblical times - and for a Jewish base after the WW2 horrors.

[naomi24]

Thank you for your answers, but the history of the Jews isn't relevant to the question.

The fact is the Jews do consider themselves to be a special case set apart from the rest of the world - and clearly some of the rest of the world considers them a special case too simply because of the Promised Land. No matter where a Jew is born, they all cleave to Israel - but that wouldn't happen if there had never been a Promised Land. Without it, like everyone else, Jews would follow their chosen religion, but their true allegiance would lie with whatever country they were born in, as does everyone else's. Of course there will always be conflict in the world, but without the Promised Land, it would have been a far more peaceful place.

[Lonnie]

Hi naomi,
My apologies, but lets take Abraham out of the equation, no Abraham, no Jews, no Islam, so no Promised land to fight over.

I still think the world wouldn't be any better off, and world history wouldn't be much changed, as I said earlier, Mans footprints etc.

[beso]

Of course we must also remember that Utah is the Promised Land according to the LatterDay Saints (Mormons)

[naomi24]

Lonnie, it sounds as though you've completely lost faith in humanity.

It all seems so futile to me. People hating and killing each other - and for what? A scrap of desert - when in reality there's room in the world for everyone. I know that's a simplistic view, devoid of politics, religion, history, and all the other nonsense that goes to make up this on-going nightmare, but in reality we're all going to end up dead one day - but because of this many live in constant unnecessary conflict and die long before their time. And what makes it worse is that the God that all these people believe in, and think is on their side, supposedly knew what was going to happen when he made this promise! What a troublemaker! I think Israel is one of the saddest places on earth.

Beso, that's a very good point, although the Mormons are better off than the Jews or the Palestinians because no one else wants Utah!

Happy New Year everyone. x

[123everton]

The fact is'nt that Jews consider themselves to be a special case, pre war they were very well integrated into European society via marriage etc, there were even Jewish Gypsies pre war.
The whole basis for your question is flawed which is skewing the answers.
The politics of Palestine/Israel go far beyond religion (as you well know) the reality of Israel is that there was noone else who'd have them. It suited Britain and the west for Israel to begin as that meant we did'nt have to give succour and sustenance to these refugees, we just could'nt allow ourselves to be seen to condone it.
Whic is in truth one of the oldest British colonial ploys.
Before the war a ship (forget the name, it was a "strength through joy" ship though) full of them sailed all over the world trying to find someone who'd give them shelter, they were turned away every time.