Do you believe in ghosts?

[Gamergirl80]

This question is to everyone? If you have seen one, i'd love to hear about it??

[naomi24]

The same applies. How would you know it was him? We might believe you'd seen a ghost, or something (for want of a better word) supernatural, but we'd have no reason to believe you'd seen God.

[Octavius]

But I would just say "I know what I saw".

[naomi24]

And I would say you may have seen something, but since we do not have a photograph, or even a description of God, you have nothing to relate it to, and therefore you couldn't possibly define it.

[Octavius]

So if I said I had seen God and knew what I saw, you wouldn't believe me?

[naomi24]

No, I wouldn�t believe you, and for legitimate reasons.

Firstly, assuming I believed in God (which I don't), he says himself that no man can see him and live. Therefore, if you had indeed seen him, I would expect you to be dead, and incapable of telling me anything..

Secondly, since we have no idea what he looks like, then you couldn't possibly know what or whom you'd seen.

This discussion between you and me is going around in circles, Octavius, and achieving nothing, but Ludwig made some very valid points in his post a little while ago that you haven�t yet addressed.

[Octavius]

You'd just have to take my (and the thousand others) word for it.

[naomi24]

No, I wouldn't have to take your word for it. I've given you very valid reasons for not believing you. What valid reason do you have to disbelieve all the people here? You think it's impossible to see a ghost, and you think all those who say they have are either mistaken or deluded. I can't see any logical reasoning in your argument at all.

[naomi24]

Are you going to respond to Ludwig?

[Octavius]

I am not debating the possibilities. I said 3 pages back that if I were to concede it were possible to see ghosts then would you concede it could be �not possible�. That it is possible that what you saw was not a ghost.

So, I say I have seen God and know it to be true. But you don�t believe me.

Your valid reasons for disbelieving me are that I have no proof, that it is inconsistent with the Bible, and that because we don�t know what He looks like it could not have possibly been God.

That is as valid as me saying you might think you have seen a ghost, but you might not have. Can you not accept that you might not have seen a ghost? What does a ghost look like? How do you know what a ghost looks like? If you say it looks like a person, then how do you distinguish it as a ghost? I presume it would do something supernatural as a demonstration. Supposing I saw God and knew He was God and He proved it by doing something only God could do? I could say I know what God looks like because I have seen Him and seen Him do something Godly.

Tell me, if you can question and dismiss my personal experience of seeing and hearing God that I know to be true (but you don�t believe me)�then why can I not question and dismiss your personal experiences of ghosts and Ouijaboards (that I don�t believe)?

If you like, let�s substitute the word �God�, with Martian/Venusian. Same rule applies.

[Quinlad]

Blimey, I'd forgotten about this thread...

In 1917, the Virgin Mary appeared to 3 children in Fatima, Portugal - and spoke to them at length on the 13th of the month through the summer.

Word got around and more and more people would come along and watch as well. By October, they were coming in their tens of thousands. This time, the crowd saw the clouds part before the sun span like a catherine wheel giving off different coloured light. It then plummeted to earth before returning to its original position. Many reported seeing the face of the Virgin Mary in the sky.

Given that this many people claim they saw a miracle from God and the face of Mary, is it arrogant or dismissive or wrong to believe it probably wasn't? (Even though - with so many witnesses - it's a sighting that carries more evidential weight than the isolated incidents we've heard on this thread.)

To believe in ghosts (ahead of all those rival explanations that do have a basis in science - like physics and psychology), I'd want some attempt to explain what they are and how they're formed and what rules govern them. Using what science we have.

I know we're always learning more and there's plenty we don't know, but it seems a bit cheap to suggest that because we don't know everything, we can choose to believe anything. That's guessing. It's plucking an unprovable but catch-all phenomenon out of the air because we can make it fit something unusual.

[naomi24]

Octavius, It�s patently obvious that you aren�t debating the possibilities, as you say - and you�re not addressing other people�s views either.

What are you actually nitpicking with here? The word �ghost�? As for demonstrations - oh that really is very, very funny! A ghost who does party tricks to prove he�s a ghost. Anyone here seen one of those? :o)

�Supposing I saw God and knew He was God and He proved it by doing something only God could do?

What would that be then? And how would you know that only God could do it?

I�m not trailing along with you on any more of your fantasies, Octavius. It doesn�t matter to me whether you believe me or not - and I�m quite sure no one else here cares what you think of their experiences either.

Quinlad, yes, Fatima. I know the account well.

I�ve made it very clear that I do not believe in ghosts ahead of any rival explanation that has a basis in science, and, to be perfectly honest, I resent the implication. I would love to have a scientific explanation, and I�m sure there is one, but unfortunately it hasn�t surfaced - yet. Additionally, since you haven�t experienced anything of this nature, criticising those who have as cheap in choosing to believe anything, isn�t clever, and neither is it perceptive. It�s narrow-minded - and science has never progressed on the strength of a narrow mind.

[123everton]

I think the tension in this minor quarrel is caused by the lack of consistency.
Why is it probable/possible for a ghost to turn all the clocks back in your house by one hour, yet improbable/impossible for God (or if you prefer some spectral ancestor) to stop a 12 year old boy being decapitated by a bus?
Our prejudices decide the validity of evidence.
Why is it narrow mided not to accept the existence of ghosts (or our ability to see them) but broad minded to say there is no God?
Well, probably, just trying to maintain my objectivity.;-)

[Octavius]

Octavius, It�s patently obvious that you aren�t debating the possibilities, as you say - and you�re not addressing other people�s views either.

Naomi, I said several times � and repeated several times - I can concede on the basis of quantum, that it is possible that ghost�s can exist and that people believe they have seen them. All I was asking was whether you could concede that it is possible that they don�t.

Simple really, yet you seem to tie yourself up in knots avoiding the question and just attacking my personal beliefs.

So, how did you know, that what you saw, was a ghost if, the thought of a ghost never even entered your head until you were 14 when you had your first sighting?

Everton, I am not tense � except in a muscular way after my work out - but the wife is seeing to that later :o)

Also, why when I am challenging something and looking for answers is it seen as quarrelsome? I have been harangued, insulted, called utterly dim, irational and deluded over my Catholicism, yet here I am meant to put up and shut up? Isn�t that double standards?

[Velvetee]

I've never seen any kind of Apparition, but hope to spend my honeymoon at a haunted hotel. Any suggestions?

[Octavius]

Are you hoping that things go bump in the night?!

[Velvetee]

Not that kind of bumping Octavius, prefer the spooky kind these days.

[naomi24]

Octavius, since you�re clearly still fantasising, just to set the record straight, I�ll indulge you one last time.

All I was asking was whether you could concede that it is possible that they don�t.

And I�ve answered that. No.

Simple really, yet you seem to tie yourself up in knots avoiding the question and just attacking my personal beliefs.

I don�t - and I haven�t.

���.the thought of a ghost never even entered your head until you were 14 when you had your first sighting?

I didn�t say that - and this is the second time I�ve told you.

This was a very interesting thread, but it�s become tedious and unpleasant, so I�m off. Bye.

PS. Have a good honeymoon, Velvetee - and congratulations.

[welshlibranr]

I live in a large old house, and have never seen ghosts here, but some evening when we go to bed and the house is quiet, we hear music, it's always the same, like a String Quartet, we hear it often, it can't be the neighbours, we don't have any! At first we used to get up to check that a TV or CD deck hadn't been left on by mistake, but they hadn't! Now we try to ignore it, it usually stops after about 30 minutes, but can be very irritating!

[Octavius]

It could be worse, welsh, it could be Mariah Carey wailing like a banshee.

naomi, I have come to expect no less.

[naomi24]

Nor me.