Memes

[123everton]

Does anyone hear believe in the memes theory?

[chakka35]

But it isn't 'just a piece of information'; it is an idea, a thought, a philosophy, which may or may not be factual, its distinctive characteristic being its ability to spread among the population as a gene does.

Fair enough, if you don't like the idea; no-one's forcing you to. Just dismiss it as the 'load of ********' you originally called it.

[chakka35]

Ah, so that's how you got away with ******** when I didn't!

[chakka35]

Hang on! I typed that word excacly like you did, everton, but they asterisked mine. What is this special privilege you have?

[123everton]

It must be God's will. LOL.
What I'm suggesting is that it's pointless piece of language, unless it's value is seen merely as a convenient piece of shorthand.
On the show (which I thought was rather good) amongst things the presenter described a meme as being used to describe the myth of reality theory (is this all a dream etc, don't get me started) which I suppose if it is just a piece of shorthand is reasonable.
I still tend to disagree with the main contention, I made a concious decision to believe in God, I certainly was'nt influenced by anyone and if anything and if anyone was going to influence me then I'd be more inclined to atheism as we have an overtly secular/atheist media.

[123everton]

No derision taken, but this conditioning is equally true of atheism, is it not?
I am not convinced as to the validity or the need for the term, personally I am of the opinion that we make choices and exercise our free will to follow the paths we take, and indeed that those choices may be made to some extent in the sub-concious.
And that we tailor our excuses to suit our needs accordingly

[naomi24]

I don't agree that atheism is due to conditioning. Each and every one of us has been exposed to religious doctrine in one way or another throughout our lives, and therefore it follows that those who choose atheism have actually thought about it and made a conscious decision to reject religion.

[123everton]

Where's that leave people like me who made a concious decision to accept religion?
Where's that leave people who change their faith?
Where's that leave people who reject religion after talking to others about it?
We live in an overtly secular society, is that not party to conditioning?

[naomi24]

1. People who make a conscious decision to believe accept the conditioning they've experienced.

2. People who change their faith have already accepted the concept of religion.

3. My first answer deals with that.

4. No. Religion is still very apparent. Statistics may show that Church attendance is down, but that doesn't mean that the indigenous population doesn't, in general, believe in God in one way or another. And then you have those of other faiths who have come here from other countries. They too are influenced by their own cultures and their own belief systems, whereas atheists of all nationalities consciously reject any such conditioning.

[123everton]

There are numerous books on subjects like the delusional belief in God, this information is freely available everywhere (rightly so) it's on T.V, it's on radio, it's on the backs of buses, it's in the papers and it's in books.
It is surely as much a choice not to believe, as it is to decide to buy the latest tome by Richard Dawkins?
Does not the reading and aceptance of the views that such authors profess formulate it owns form of conditioning?
Look at the hissy fits some suffer when you criticise Darwin.
Myself for instance, I grew up in a completely unreligious household I did'nt go to Sunday school, we sang hymns at assembly with a bit of a reading that's it. The only memory I have of it all is singing "Sing Hosana".
It was aged 11 I chose to try and engage with God when in R.E my teacher started talking to us about Panku (part of some extinct religion) I immediately disengaged from the lesson(s) I wanted to learn about Hinduism and Judaism etc that was valid to me, this was'nt. None of my friends were religious (still are'nt) the idea of talking about God then (or now) was an anaethema where is my conditioning?
I don't watch "Songs Of Praise" never have, never will.
The closest thing I got to watching religion was "In Loving Memory".
My trouble with atheism is that it likes to create a pigeon hole for everyone but themselves, they exclude themselves from it.
I view this as intelectual cowardice.

[naomi24]

Infundibulum, I don't agree with MAY. If people choose religion, or choose to change their religion, clearly they have been previously exposed in some way to religion, otherwise they wouldn't be aware of its existence in the first place.

Everton, yes, it is a choice to believe, but unlike atheism, religion is imposed on us from childhood, which is why at age 11 you tried to engage with God. Your teachers never told you God doesn't exist, did they - hence you sang hymns and sought knowledge of other religions - and the pigeonhole you are in is one of your choosing. Atheists don't belong to any club, and whilst some may be guilty of intellectual laziness, I would say that most who contribute to these pages, and choose in adult life to read authors like Richard Dawkins actively seek the truth, and are, therefore, not among them.

[123everton]

I was compelled to sing hymns until about aged 7, after that I recieved no religious education save for a picture for Easter and one for Christmas, I was aware of the theory of evolution and even watched "Myself And Other Animals" of all the influences that were available to me atheism was the prevailing one, I was taught about evolution in biology from the age of 11, nobody imposed faith upon me, that's a huge assumption. I did not attend a faith school.
What you appear to be suggesting is that a meme is a term used to describe everybody but atheists.
How can Dawkins coin a phrase to describe all the others and yet not be a group of people who share "an idea, a thought, a philosophy, which may or may not be factual" notable by "its ability to spread among the population as a gene does"?

[naomi24]

No assumption. You were compelled to sing hymns until about age 7, and after that you received no religious education? How come you had RE lessons at the age of 11, then, when you were interested in learning about other religions? Everton, perhaps you should try to be a little more consistent and, at the very least, decide what story you will tell before attempting to defend an indefensible argument.

Incidentally, atheists don't share an idea. Since we are all born without ideas or philosophy, I think you'll find that God is an idea, and religion is a philosophy - and atheism is neither.

[123everton]

I sang hymns at assembly up to aged 7, I don't recall a single bible lesson throughout juniour and primary school, aged 11 I sat down to my first ever R.E lesson (at least that's how I remember it) I I don't see the inconsistency, the R.E lesson centred on an ancient Greek religion (not even the good stuff with Perseus etc) it did'nt engage me at all, I wanted to be taught about faiths I was liable to encounter in my life.
There's no inconsistency there, there was no compulsion either, I was/am genuinely interested in other faiths and accept their vailidity as equal to my own.
So there is no God?
How can that not be an idea without proof?
The big bang, fact or theory?
If you subscribe to either of those views then you clearly share an idea, no?

[naomi24]

There was no compulsion? You said you were compelled to sing hymns. Everton, your whole take on this is full of inconsistencies.

As for 'ideas', let me put it this way. Up until a few thousand years ago, your God didn't exist in anyone's imagination. Therefore, his existence is an 'idea' that came about fairly recently. Why should anyone be required to provide proof that the 'idea' is flawed? Atheists don't suddenly acquire other ideas - they simply disagree with that one.

And there's no point in talking about theories such as the Big Bang, because they are theories, but according to you, the idea of God's existence is not a theory - it's a fact - and that's an entirely different thing.

[123everton]

You actually have'nt tried to answer the question, is a meme an idea that spreads amongst a group?
Is atheism/the big bang an idea?
Are atheists then the anti-meme?
Tell me what you think a meme is?
I sang hymns once a week in assembly up to the age of 7 (like most everyone in the country I assume) between 7 and 11 I recieved no religious education, watched no religious programmes but did watch science shows etc, religious education did'nt appear in my life until aged 11 which to my huge disappointment was not about religions that were relevant to today. My religious education after that was what bits I could pick up here and there.
Noone compelled me to look and learn about faith, especially as I was particuarly interested in other faiths.
You yourself admit to being fascinated, or rather a passion for the subject, the only difference between you and I is that I want to learn about it, immerse myself in it and enjoy it with them, whereas you desire to be the iconclast who brings the whole lot crashing down.
Good luck to you, there's nothing wrong in that, many people seek converts to their cause, I'm just not one of em.

[naomi24]

Oops, you're getting upset again Everton.

[123everton]

No, not at all (yawns loudly), you still have'nt answered those 3 questions though.