Scripture

[KARL]

I would be grateful if those who know the Bible extremely well (or have access to someone who does) would enlighten me on the following:
Is there anything in the book that actually says there is a devil ?
Is there anything in the New Testament that actually says Jesus himself was divine - that is, not just hints (however oblique or not) that might (wishfully or not) be interpreted as such (not just My Father, etc.) ?
Is there anything in the New Testament that actually says Mary was a virgin - again, hints won't do ?

To make it clear: I am asking for unambiguous statements. If you know of any, then please quote me chapter and verse as well as the actual sentence(s).

[Ankou]

are you not capable of your own research/homework ?

most of these are easily answered with a little help from google.

[JockSporran]

Nowhere in the New Testament does Jesus actually make an outright claim to be God.

[jno]

Satan tempts Jesus in the wilderness: "And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan" (Mark 1.13). Satan is usually thought to be the serpent who tempts Eve as well but I don't think the Bible actually says so.

And the gospels make the link between Jesus and God: "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God." (Mark 1.1); "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost". (Matthew 1)

("Before they came together" clearly means before they had sex; it doesn't specifically say she had/hadn't had sex with anyone else, but I think this is assumed as normal.)

[KARL]

Thanks for the replies so far although "look for the answer yourself" is unhelpful. In fact, I came across a short treatise on the devil issue and conflicting takes on what it means, so that part of my question may be considered out of the way: There is a direct reference to a/the devil or similar by other names (satan, etc.) in various places within the Bible as a whole.

I was under the impression that attributing divine status to Jesus is an interpretation/assumption rather than it actually being directly stated in the New Testament, but I was being challenged in a discussion as being wrong (nothing other than oblique statements of paternity and such were quoted to support the assertion).

I should clarify that the virginity issue relates to the point of conception, if not at Jesus' birth.

Both points are the subject of discussion of the way scripture can be and is 'bent' to suit certain objectives. There is for example said to be absolutely no Koranic requirement for the veil or even the hijab as such - merely modesty: In effect, don't flaunt it. But I don't want to go any further into that side of things in this thread

[KARL]

Sorry, jno, yes, just my point: It is an assumption rather than a quote.

[jno]

this is more explicit, from Luke 1:27
"To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary."

[jno]

just to add to your remark about hejab: there's something in the Bible, though I can't track it down at the moment, where Paul suggests women should cover their hair in church (though otherwise it is a good thing to have long hair because it covers them up). And some Jewish women wear wigs in front of others. It seems that the Abrahamic religions - and the males who follow them - have some sort of problem with women's hair, I'm not sure why.

[naomi24]

As far as I'm aware, whilst the devil is mentioned many times within the stories of the bible, there is no one statement confirming his existence.

Only once, according to the bible, did Jesus claim to be the son of God, and that was at his trial, where there were no witnesses, and of which there is no record.

With regard to the �Virgin� Mary, the original Hebrew word used in the prophesy of Isaiah to describe her was almah, meaning a young woman of marriageable age. The Hebrew word for virgin is betula. Mary didn't become a virgin until the text was mis-translated into Greek - and that came much later. It�s interesting to note that the earliest gospel , Mark, doesn�t mention the virgin birth, and neither does Paul, the founder of the Christian church.

The Koran is based on Jewish and Christian texts, and again, as far as I�m aware, although it says women must dress modestly, it does not say they must cover themselves completely.

Jno, try Corinthians 11.

[jno]

thank you, naomi. But what sort of statement would you accept as confirming Satan's existence? (from the point of view of the writer, I mean). If it says Satan tempted Jesus, isn't that confirmation? It's up to KARL whether it's the sort of thing he wants, of course; but if you say someone did something, and you're not overtly writing fiction or just lying, aren't you confirming that the person exists?

[naomi24]

You're welcome, jno.

I'm not asking the question and I'm not looking for an explanation. As you say Karl must decide as he will. For myself, since you asked, I have no way of knowing that this writer wasn't an author of fiction, or even who he was, so no it is not enough for him to tell me Satan tempted Jesus. For all anyone knows, he could have been the J K Rowling of his age!

[Ankou]

jno in most instances if not all, the subject of head covering is following custom rather than religious instruction or requirement. as you referred to paul when he spoke to the corinthians, there is argument he was only urging them to observe the local custom but this is an interpretation only � there are many articles on 1 corinthians 11: 12-16 if you google it. personally i think its quite clear. men: it�s a sin to cover your hesad up, women: it�s a sin not to.

the �custom� of covering heads for observance or subservience/ humility is an ancient one that extends far beyond the recent history of the abrahamic religions. as usual paul was nicking everyone elses ideas and making them his own.

karl, to say that �both points are the subject of discussion of the way scripture can be and is 'bent' to suit certain objectives� was really the point of my first answer but i should have included �to draw your own conclusions�. it wasn�t meant to be as terse as it came out. you either take the bible as written or you do what everyone else does and mould and manipulate it so it suits your ideology or pick several quotes to explain why it affronts your own rationality.

[TorahBoy]

Jews reject the notion of a 'Devil' as such, because we believe in One, all powerful God. The Christian notion of one God for good, and another being responsible for evil doesn't therefore fit in with this basic belief. The name 'Ha Satan' translates from Hebrew as 'adversary' (as close as one can get. Torah Hebrew is notoriously difficult to translate into other languages). Ha Satan appears in the book of Job:

http://www.aletheiacollege.net/dbb/2-1-2ha_sat an.htm

Hope this helps.

I can't tell you about the New Testament treatment of the nature of the Devil, as personally, I stop reading the 'Bible' at the end of the book of II Chronicles.