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HOLOCAUST
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Should jews forgive those who were responsible for the holocaust ? what do you think ?
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I agree with what you're all saying in that an atrocity is an atrocity, whenever in time and wherever geographically it is committed.
What is considered to be frightening about the Holocaust is that it happened in a Western so called 'civilized' nation whereby other 'civilized' nations also complied with and therefore perpetrated this act of the extermination of the Jews - Guernsey in the Channel Islands, Belgium, Holland, France etc, they all exported Jews to their deaths. And in the 20th Century, 60 years ago within a 6 year period. And as Jake says, nothing to do with religion. Jews were simply 'blamed' for Germany's loss in the First World War and that they were prospering well, fuelling a Jewish conspiracy of domination. Extermination of this 'Jewish problem' was considered acceptable by millions of people.
What is considered to be frightening about the Holocaust is that it happened in a Western so called 'civilized' nation whereby other 'civilized' nations also complied with and therefore perpetrated this act of the extermination of the Jews - Guernsey in the Channel Islands, Belgium, Holland, France etc, they all exported Jews to their deaths. And in the 20th Century, 60 years ago within a 6 year period. And as Jake says, nothing to do with religion. Jews were simply 'blamed' for Germany's loss in the First World War and that they were prospering well, fuelling a Jewish conspiracy of domination. Extermination of this 'Jewish problem' was considered acceptable by millions of people.
Basically there are four main types of response to attrocities undertaken by the perpetrators and their decendents
Firstly renouncing of the act as wrong, acceptance of responsibility and reeducation of the people to change the beliefs. This has been undertaken by Germany and is to their credit.
Secondly the "We did bad things but it wasn't just us". "We were responding to wrongs committed against us." Very common around the planet.
Thirdly. Denial. The attrocities never happened. Neo-Nazis. The Turks driving Albanians into the desert to die. Some participants from the the conflict in Bosnia.
The last. The upholding of the attrocities as a Holy act in the name of God. Presenting its success as evidence for the special status of the perpetrators as God's own people. AFAIK the Israelites stand alone on this one. No other group would subscribe to this disgusting philosophy. Indeed the deniers would be more deserving of respect since they at least acknowledge that the act was so unsavoury that their people could not have done it.
But no. Not the Minions of Abraham. It is their glorious history. While the Jews continue to teach the Biblical Israelite massacres as evidence of their devine status while deploring the attrocites committed against them, they are hypocrites of the highest order. I could not care whether they forgive the Holocoaust or not while they continue to promote their disgusting philosophy.
Firstly renouncing of the act as wrong, acceptance of responsibility and reeducation of the people to change the beliefs. This has been undertaken by Germany and is to their credit.
Secondly the "We did bad things but it wasn't just us". "We were responding to wrongs committed against us." Very common around the planet.
Thirdly. Denial. The attrocities never happened. Neo-Nazis. The Turks driving Albanians into the desert to die. Some participants from the the conflict in Bosnia.
The last. The upholding of the attrocities as a Holy act in the name of God. Presenting its success as evidence for the special status of the perpetrators as God's own people. AFAIK the Israelites stand alone on this one. No other group would subscribe to this disgusting philosophy. Indeed the deniers would be more deserving of respect since they at least acknowledge that the act was so unsavoury that their people could not have done it.
But no. Not the Minions of Abraham. It is their glorious history. While the Jews continue to teach the Biblical Israelite massacres as evidence of their devine status while deploring the attrocites committed against them, they are hypocrites of the highest order. I could not care whether they forgive the Holocoaust or not while they continue to promote their disgusting philosophy.
Dunno what happened then!
When it comes to forgiveness where do you begin to admonish blame?
Many Jews live in Israel in fear because they were Kapos (may even be a crime in Israel), some were good some were bad, many inmates (Japanese P.O.Ws also) will tell you in a very matter of fact way, that you'd be amazed what you'll do just to live another day.
Should the Jews forgive the Gyspsies who informed on them to the guards to gain a little extra food or favours?
Upon liberation in some camps the prisoners tore some these Kapos limb from limb.
How about the inmates who emptied the crematoria?
If all the Jews refused to do th dirty work who could they get to kill them?
What about the inmates who visited block 24 at Auschwitz?
Should they be forgiven or excused?
Albert Speer said sorry, he claimed not to know fully about the atrocities (there's evidence to suggest he was lying), he was feted upon releases, whereas Doenitz was jailed for 10 years, for prosecuting a "clean" war at sea (his orders were the same as ours) so why was he punished?
In the Balkans land was gifted to other states, and people without a country are ripe for abuse, citation the Greeks (until Greece was founded), the Armenians, the Serbs, the Bosnians, the Croats and the Jews.
It boils down to how it affects you now, if day to day one seethes with resentment over the offence, then one needs to strive to find forgiveness or justice.
At some point one has to stop the cycle of hatred and retibution.
When it comes to forgiveness where do you begin to admonish blame?
Many Jews live in Israel in fear because they were Kapos (may even be a crime in Israel), some were good some were bad, many inmates (Japanese P.O.Ws also) will tell you in a very matter of fact way, that you'd be amazed what you'll do just to live another day.
Should the Jews forgive the Gyspsies who informed on them to the guards to gain a little extra food or favours?
Upon liberation in some camps the prisoners tore some these Kapos limb from limb.
How about the inmates who emptied the crematoria?
If all the Jews refused to do th dirty work who could they get to kill them?
What about the inmates who visited block 24 at Auschwitz?
Should they be forgiven or excused?
Albert Speer said sorry, he claimed not to know fully about the atrocities (there's evidence to suggest he was lying), he was feted upon releases, whereas Doenitz was jailed for 10 years, for prosecuting a "clean" war at sea (his orders were the same as ours) so why was he punished?
In the Balkans land was gifted to other states, and people without a country are ripe for abuse, citation the Greeks (until Greece was founded), the Armenians, the Serbs, the Bosnians, the Croats and the Jews.
It boils down to how it affects you now, if day to day one seethes with resentment over the offence, then one needs to strive to find forgiveness or justice.
At some point one has to stop the cycle of hatred and retibution.
Jew who cooperated with their captors were simply following the lead in the Old Testament.
When the Hewbrews sent spies into one of their vanquished cities they stayed in "the house of a prostitute" (all the women in the cites they annihilated were supposed to be prostitutes.)
For some reason the spies told the woman what was about to go down (perhaps the sex was good). They told her that she and her family would be spared provided she kept quiet about the coming massacre. She obliged, denying the people the chance to prepare themselves and she and her decendents went on to live among the Israelites.
The Bible is God's advice on conducting an upstanding life. The Jew who worked for the Nazis simply followed suit..
When the Hewbrews sent spies into one of their vanquished cities they stayed in "the house of a prostitute" (all the women in the cites they annihilated were supposed to be prostitutes.)
For some reason the spies told the woman what was about to go down (perhaps the sex was good). They told her that she and her family would be spared provided she kept quiet about the coming massacre. She obliged, denying the people the chance to prepare themselves and she and her decendents went on to live among the Israelites.
The Bible is God's advice on conducting an upstanding life. The Jew who worked for the Nazis simply followed suit..
Beso, I understand what you're saying, but as a human being, I have to say that what happened to the Jews was unthinkable - and it would have been no more or less unthinkable had it happened to any other section of society. No matter what the history (and I do agree with you on that, as I agree with Keyplus that the Palestinians should never have been displaced from their homeland), no one should suffer as the Jews suffered in the Holocaust. Man's inhumanity to man is the greatest evil in this world.
I think Clanad has put it very succinctly.
For my part, I am fortunate in that I lost no relatives in the Holocaust, But I would never forgive the perpetrators, lets face it, if they had succeeded, I wouldn't be here now, but you can't blame the ones who came after.
A case in point, my wife definately doesn't forgive, but she's best friends with a neighbour whose parents were in the Hitler youth.
For my part, I am fortunate in that I lost no relatives in the Holocaust, But I would never forgive the perpetrators, lets face it, if they had succeeded, I wouldn't be here now, but you can't blame the ones who came after.
A case in point, my wife definately doesn't forgive, but she's best friends with a neighbour whose parents were in the Hitler youth.
What hope does Man have for love and compassion in this world when at 9:11 in the morning Beso, when a new day is considered to start, you say 'I could not care whether they forgive the Holocaust or not or not while they continue to promote their disgusting philosophy'? You may not agree with the Jewish people and not every Jewish person will probably agree either, but 'disgusting philosophy?' I am not a Jew....and even I'm offended by that.
Indeed what happend to the Jews aught to be unthinkable and should never have happend to anyone.
So is the slaughter every man, woman and child in at least 32 tribes in the name of God.
Followed up by destroying their settlements and putting their valuables in a box and worshipping it.
They claimed status as "The Chosen Race". This is ancient Nazism.
The big difference is the Jews uphold it as evidence of their divine status.
That, by any measure is a "disgusting philosophy".
Pretend it can be dignified as you will but these are the facts.
I would feel a sense a moral weakness to not expereince disgust in thinking of this, just as I would be pathetic if I didn't feel disgust for the actions of Hitler and his cronies.
Wake up. This is important. Stop being blinded by the rhetoric of claims for rights to unconditional religious tolerance. Bad things happen when good people are silent.
So is the slaughter every man, woman and child in at least 32 tribes in the name of God.
Followed up by destroying their settlements and putting their valuables in a box and worshipping it.
They claimed status as "The Chosen Race". This is ancient Nazism.
The big difference is the Jews uphold it as evidence of their divine status.
That, by any measure is a "disgusting philosophy".
Pretend it can be dignified as you will but these are the facts.
I would feel a sense a moral weakness to not expereince disgust in thinking of this, just as I would be pathetic if I didn't feel disgust for the actions of Hitler and his cronies.
Wake up. This is important. Stop being blinded by the rhetoric of claims for rights to unconditional religious tolerance. Bad things happen when good people are silent.
Hi Beso, I really don't know. Life is complicated enough without religion. The difficulty I have is that religion doesn't learn, whatever atrocity happens, the same is committed somewhere else at another time. I have said many times that religious debates don't appeal to me - there is just too much negativity in there and I sign right now as I get unwillingily drawn into them on AB (my fault probably!). I think its good that knowledgeable people, like yourself discuss these issues as I am out of my depth on the subject. All I ask is that we should be positive ourselves and that we live respecting others whatever their chose of religion, colour, race, sex, education etc. (Which you probably do) As you know indivduals collectively make a society that has a voice.
I know my limitations, I am not a Crusader but I will speak out when I feel a wrong has been committed or a negative thing said. I just thought the 'disgusting philosophy' comment was abit too negative for the morning? But I now understand your explanation. That is so true what you say - 'Bad things happen when good people are silent.' I blame life, not God. If I'm wrong, I'll think about it and learn. After all, as a Spiritual believer that is what life is all about. The intellectual stuff I shall leave to you. (smiling)
I know my limitations, I am not a Crusader but I will speak out when I feel a wrong has been committed or a negative thing said. I just thought the 'disgusting philosophy' comment was abit too negative for the morning? But I now understand your explanation. That is so true what you say - 'Bad things happen when good people are silent.' I blame life, not God. If I'm wrong, I'll think about it and learn. After all, as a Spiritual believer that is what life is all about. The intellectual stuff I shall leave to you. (smiling)
Believe it or not I am a spiritual person. I just cannot respect behavior built on ignorance and religious dogma. This is one reason why I find the sanctification of Joshua's genocides so deeply offensive. Many believers do not even know what they are glorifying but in doing so they contribute to the insidious power of this hideous philosophy. It is abrogation of responsibiliy and consciousness of the highest order to adopt a belief system without knowledge of its foundations.
More disturbingly and particularly so in the case of Judeaism the massacres in the name of God are central to their faith. It is held as evidence for their own special place with God and used by Zionists to justify further expansion of Israel. I have seen a Jewish preist actually say "God gave us this land". People like this will never be satisfied until Israel reaches the boundaries set out in the Old Testament and will use their faith to justify any brutality necessary to achieve it.
I don't begrudge the Jewish people their country. Nor am I an antisemite. But until we can move on from ancient stories of grand slaughter there can be no peace. With a history of genocide and invasion it is little wonder that the Arabs don't trust them.
But of course here lies more hypocracy. The Muslim faith is built on a history of invasion and slaughter (conversion by the sword). And let us not neglect the Christians who did the same despite the teachings of their prophet. The Abrahamic faiths embody ritual killing from their deepest roots so cannot be repaired to reflect modern values despite the efforts starting at least from Jesus himself.
I implore people to consider this reality and cast out their primitive faiths in a search for true spirituality and enlightenment. The future of humanity depends on it.
More disturbingly and particularly so in the case of Judeaism the massacres in the name of God are central to their faith. It is held as evidence for their own special place with God and used by Zionists to justify further expansion of Israel. I have seen a Jewish preist actually say "God gave us this land". People like this will never be satisfied until Israel reaches the boundaries set out in the Old Testament and will use their faith to justify any brutality necessary to achieve it.
I don't begrudge the Jewish people their country. Nor am I an antisemite. But until we can move on from ancient stories of grand slaughter there can be no peace. With a history of genocide and invasion it is little wonder that the Arabs don't trust them.
But of course here lies more hypocracy. The Muslim faith is built on a history of invasion and slaughter (conversion by the sword). And let us not neglect the Christians who did the same despite the teachings of their prophet. The Abrahamic faiths embody ritual killing from their deepest roots so cannot be repaired to reflect modern values despite the efforts starting at least from Jesus himself.
I implore people to consider this reality and cast out their primitive faiths in a search for true spirituality and enlightenment. The future of humanity depends on it.
Seadragon said: "The difficulty I have is that religion doesn't learn, whatever atrocity happens, the same is committed somewhere else at another time.
This is an inevitable consequence of a philosophy that presupposes all truth combined with a doctrine accusing all who do not adhere to the party line as misguided or under the influcene of evil. By definition there is nothing to learn in religion. All truths are already agreed upon.
More disturbingly the written details in the revered texts are esoteric and contradictory. The interpretation is controlled by a self subscribing elite who have, over all of history, exploited this position to motivate the faithful to violence.
Seadragon continues:
" I have said many times that religious debates don't appeal to me - there is just too much negativity in there ..."
Would you be as ambivalent if we discussed the Holocaust? Would the Nazis be entitled to promote their philosophy without criticism because such critcism would be "too negative" ?
We have been taught to value religious tolerance. This enshrined the concept of every person having the right to persue their own faith without criticism from others. This portrayed anyone who dared to point out the unsavoury nature and inevitable consequences of following religious doctrine as uncouth. Yet the fundamental beliefs embodied in religious faith are at best deeply flawed and profoundly disturbing.
This is an inevitable consequence of a philosophy that presupposes all truth combined with a doctrine accusing all who do not adhere to the party line as misguided or under the influcene of evil. By definition there is nothing to learn in religion. All truths are already agreed upon.
More disturbingly the written details in the revered texts are esoteric and contradictory. The interpretation is controlled by a self subscribing elite who have, over all of history, exploited this position to motivate the faithful to violence.
Seadragon continues:
" I have said many times that religious debates don't appeal to me - there is just too much negativity in there ..."
Would you be as ambivalent if we discussed the Holocaust? Would the Nazis be entitled to promote their philosophy without criticism because such critcism would be "too negative" ?
We have been taught to value religious tolerance. This enshrined the concept of every person having the right to persue their own faith without criticism from others. This portrayed anyone who dared to point out the unsavoury nature and inevitable consequences of following religious doctrine as uncouth. Yet the fundamental beliefs embodied in religious faith are at best deeply flawed and profoundly disturbing.
Seadragon then said:
I blame life, not God.
God is a construct of religion. The Will of God is used as a justification not only to hold a belief beyond critique but to inflict it upon the whole of humanity at pain of death if necessary.
Religions promote themselves as the keepers of moral truth and ethical knowledge. The elepahants in the room are their holy texts. There written in ink are abhorances which would not be tolerated but for their traditons. If the Bible was published today it would be derided for promoting villification and genocide. And rightly so.
Unless people choose to speak up about this, our future will be exacty that predicted by the Old Testament prophets - Armageddon. This will happen because half the planet choses to live inder the spell of Abraham's monster in factionally divided cults . The values they promote are primitive bronze age philosophies of self rightousness and amorality.
I blame life, not God.
God is a construct of religion. The Will of God is used as a justification not only to hold a belief beyond critique but to inflict it upon the whole of humanity at pain of death if necessary.
Religions promote themselves as the keepers of moral truth and ethical knowledge. The elepahants in the room are their holy texts. There written in ink are abhorances which would not be tolerated but for their traditons. If the Bible was published today it would be derided for promoting villification and genocide. And rightly so.
Unless people choose to speak up about this, our future will be exacty that predicted by the Old Testament prophets - Armageddon. This will happen because half the planet choses to live inder the spell of Abraham's monster in factionally divided cults . The values they promote are primitive bronze age philosophies of self rightousness and amorality.
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