Religious Education in Schools - Revisited

[LazyGun]

So, there was quite a lively discussion on this topic in here quite recently. I read this article today which was germane to that conversation -thought you peeps might like a linky :)

http://www.guardian.c...eligious-education-re

[123everton]

Oh yawn, having seen this march on T.V without prior knowledge or a level of fluency in farsi, I'd have thought the event to be political and anti western etc, but it wasn't.
The narrator (bear in mind it was actually a food show) taught me what was going on, the more we understand about one another the less there is to argue about, well if you possess a modicum of respect for others.

[naomi24]

Everton, not a smidgeon of common sense or an iota of practical thought. You really don't understand a word I've said do you? So where are you going to draw the line with this 'education' you promote? Is it acceptable to shrink heads or to carry out female circumcision? After all, we have to teach children to respect religion, don't we? Everton, thank God(?) you drive a bus and not a schoolroom!

Ankou, your girly bitchiness is showing again. Do try to play nicely.

[Ankou]

"the more we understand about one another the less there is to argue about"

i doubt it, some people could create an argument with a paper cup.

[mibn2cweus]

I suppose that 'religious education' might arguably be used to provide an excellent example of an oxymoron.

[123everton]

Naomi, if you can show me where on this thread I've said we should teach children to "respect" religion, then I'll give you a coconut, in fact I'll give you two, I'll even post a thread in it's honour called "Naomi's got a lovely pair of coconuts."
I said "understand", you don't have to agree with their views, you don't have to believe in their views but if you understand their views it's easier to make sense of it all.
There's an old French saying, "de comprendre tout, c'est de savoir tous les."

[naomi24]

Well, you do insist on mentioning respect, but if you say that's not important then perhaps for fear of misleading your readers you won't mention it again.

So tell me Everton, how are you going to teach a Jew to 'understand' where a Muslim is coming from - or vice versa? And whilst you're at it, tell me how you're going to convince the respective parents that they have to understand why their children are going to be taught a religion that is abhorrant to them, and why they have to accept that and embrace it.

[123everton]

I didn't mention respect, you did.
We all know that there are different faiths in the world, to teach the understanding of it poses no threat to one's own belief, or at least it shouldn't.
We have a national curriculum, if it's on the national curriculum then they'll have to get on with it.
You seem to share the same fears of the people to whom you refer, that by exposure to these different ideas they may become infected with religion.
I honestly believe that to teach children the basics of the main religions in the world is a good thing, that it would give them a broader base fo their education and a better understanding of the world around them.
That can only be a good thing.

[naomi24]

Everton, //the more we understand about one another the less there is to argue about, well if you possess a modicum of respect for others.// I was sure you mentioned respect in conjunction with this understanding you're promoting - and lo and behold - you did.

I notice you haven't answered my question doubtless because the only available answer would throw a bit of a spanner into the works of your idealistic but totally unreasoned utopia. Yes, it would be lovely if everyone understood the next man, but when you consider the nonsensical dogma that is religion it's ridiculous to suggest that it could possibly happen. All religions teach that they are right and all the others are wrong, and therefore religion doesn't unify - it breeds hatred and consequently it separates. Take off the rose coloured spectacles Everton and face reality. Religion is a self-imposed blight on mankind - and on this whole planet.

[123everton]

So where is the scope to accept that you might be wrong?
Naomi, I can see why you're getting confused, "respect for others" includes people of no faith.
Your solution to the divisions of religion (as you describe it) is to ignore it and hope it goes away.
I heard on the radio that there is a huge festival to celebrate the birth of Krishna today, what possible harm can be done by knowing that?
In schools children are taught about evolution (there should be a standardised text for this tested by examination) that can challenge their own embryonic views on religion.
Personally I care not a jot if someone is a Jew or a Muslim or a Hindu etc, the vast majority of people with faith don't either, the more children understand the more hopefuly they'll want to go to their festivals, the more festivals the more friendships made the less chance for division to occur.
Your views and sentiments are far more dvisive and inflammatory than any others expressed here.
Maybe you've got a Dawkins tic too! LOL

[jomifl]

Hi Everton, you are being just a bit naive if you think all festivals bring light and happiness. Some years ago in india an hindu festival resulted in the slaughter of thousands of muslim traders and stallholders because of an alleged slight (almost unreported in the west). If this is what religion causes or excuses people to do then we do not need it.Your view of religion seems to be that of a comfortable middle class person living in a civilised country. Elswhere in the world it gets a bit more extreme and a bit more dangerous, so think about the bigger picture it isn't all C of E and vicars's tea parties.

[naomi24]

Everton, don't be silly. When have I ever ignored religion? And goodness! How flexible your goalposts are. You begin by calling for more religion to be taught and finish by talking about advertising happy festivals. I'm not quite sure how you intend getting around the less happy aspects of religion like the problems in the Middle East. I expect you're going to tell all Muslims and Jews they have to understand each other and play nicely together. Mmm ... that should work. Now why didn't the people who are trying to promote a peace process think of that?

//Personally I care not a jot if someone is a Jew or a Muslim or a Hindu etc, the vast majority of people with faith don't either//

What a ridiculous thing to say! How do you know that? You don't - and in fact you are very greatly mistaken. You personally might not care, but you'll find that people of faith care very much. None that I know would thank you for suggesting their offspring be taught beliefs contrary to their own. You make me laugh Everton. You say that if increased religious education were part of the National Curriculum then parents would just have to get on with it, and yet you defend a parent's choice to withhold live saving blood transfusions from their sick children and on the grounds of religion allow them to die for want of medical attention. Actually Everton, I don't think you know what you're talking about. LOL indeed.

[123everton]

I do remember the riots in India a few years ago, there was/is a nationalist narrative there, it's simmered for years, we Brits divided India by caste and by creed Sikhs at the top Muslims at the bottom.
That's why there's all that trouble in the NWFP at the moment.
To be fair though, you do have a point, as a nation we can't run around invading countries to create peace, the only thing we can do for now is devise a model that can bring about cohesion here.
Middle class, what a novel thought.
The problem in the middle east (Israel) is political (we've talked about this in the past).
I didn't know that today was Krishna's birthday, nobody taught me, only know one Hindu and we're not closely acquainted and I see him rarely, but if we were better acquainted I would have loved to hear about how he marked the occaision etc.
How do we know most people of faith don't care about the other's beliefs, there's not that much credal violence in Britain and that which does occur, there's no evidence to suggest that it's church goers or Sikh on Muslim etc, cue a numpty to shout Northern Ireland.
Look at the Jews in Tehran, noone's bothering them, anywhere you go in the world you'll find people of faith coexisting peacefully.
"None that I know would thank you for suggesting their offspring be taught beliefs contrary to their own" a fascinating insight into the company you keep especially as it's the one thing you have in common, lol indeed ;-))

[naomi24]

Everton, of good grief! I knew it wouldn't be long before you dragged us off track and along on your usual confused and incoherent tour around the houses where religion is responsible for nothing and anyone who disagrees with you is a 'numpty' or worse. I've heard it all before, so if you want to continue this do it with someone who has more patience with your disjointed ramblings than I do.

[jomifl]

Hi Everton, The regular religious slaughters in inda have nothiong to to with british colonialism, They are pure and simple religious intolerance and xenophobia. The slaughter that I referred to occurred several decades ago and was horrific in its magnitude. I will try to find a reference for it.
It is all very well to mention places where nothing happens, they are not the problem.
It is the places where there are piles of mutilated bodies that are of concern. There used to be a religion in India called the thugi, part of whose ritual was strangulation of its victims, Most people were quite happy to see it eradicated.

[jomifl]

Hi Everton, I couldn't find a specific reference for the massacre that I had in mind, but discovered via google such list of religion inspired genocide that that particular incident paled into insignificance. Why not have a look, your eyes may be opened shortly before you close them in horror at what has been done in the name of religion.

[Ankou]

isn't thugi (thuggee) some kind of equivalent satanic devil worship ?

'Kali's most common four armed iconographic image shows each hand carrying variously a sword, a trishul (trident), a severed head and a bowl or skull-cup (kapala) catching the blood of the severed head.'

possibly the origin of thuggee, and thuggery.

http://www.unexplaine...ties/The-Thuggee.html

[123everton]

You're only a numpty if you believe the troubles was/is about religion.
Jomfli, I can't deny that over time there has not been practices which are abhorrent, surti and witch burning, the former has ended (as far as I know) whereas the latter still goes in Africa but is often a means to steal land off a woman, it isn't right and the church should do more to marginilise and eradicate these practices.
Of course then there was MaCarthyism in the 1950s, if I lived in the U.S back then I may well have been executed for the books I read, if you introduce hatred to a community they're easier to control, to describe a group of people as "a blight on the world" is not a good starting point, educating children away from such extremist sentiments can only be a benefit,and for the record I include terms like kuffar, gentile, papist etc.
Such notions have no place in a civilised society, when we are civil to one another, then we can say other nations aren't, we'll never get there with some of the atitudes expressed or the adjectives I've highlighted.
The thing is, dunno about you, but I'm (as has been pointed out) a bus driver from Liverpool, there's not a lot I can do about the plight of Africa apart from put my hand in my pocket and hope for the best.
Whereas in Britain, I/we can have an influence, if children understand what it is a certain religion believes then that information is of use to them in the wider world, but that also has to include science and in particular evolution.
That's a balanced education, if a child grows up to be a Buddhist and is happy with that, great, if they grow up to be an atheist as a result, great, it's their life to choose, not our right to deny them.
A third of state schools in Britain are church schools, parents love them, they're even prepared to lie about their faithfulness to get their kids in, what are they to do if it's taken away?

[jomifl]

Yes Ankou you have it in one. The English word thug derives from the thugi or thugee who worshipped the hindu godess kali. She was not a devil figure but a mother figure, a very powerful one who seemed to overdo revenge from time to time. I'm not sure where the distinction is made between a god and a devil once outside the abrahamic religions, perhaps there is none.

[jomifl]

Hi Everton, I agree with most of what you say, however being taught about religion is not a pre-requisite for a good education. Obviously religions exist and children should be taught about them. I am not convinced that faith schools can avoid letting a bit of bias creep into their teaching of the subject.

[mibn2cweus]

//I'm not sure where the distinction is made between a god and a devil once outside the abrahamic religions, perhaps there is none.//

In the context of determining the lesser of two evils, I'm not so sure such a distinction can be made within the abrahamic religions either jomifl . . . not that I am anticipating any allegations of impartiality in that regard.