Remembering 9/11

[naomi24]

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it with religious conviction. - Blaise Pascal

[sandyRoe]

As ye sow, so shall ye reap.

[ummmm]

Can't argue with that. Some religions do it more completely and cheerfully than others.

Guess which one I'm referring to? Bet you can't :-)

[razza]

And they are rioting about burning a few books

[jno]

Disagree totally. Nazis had no particular religious convictions (antisemitism was aimed at the race, not the religion); Stalin and the Khmer Rouge actively sought to repress religion. There was no more religious element in the Rwanda genocide than in the Wars of the Roses... and so on and so on. Atheists like to kid themselves they're somehow purer than lesser mortals. They aren't.

[rowanwitch]

But not all of them....I have friends who hate going out of the house on this day each year...kind decent people who just want to get on with their lives....please do not judge by the actions of fools and extremists (although in my book the terms are often exchangeable)

But it is good to remember those of all faiths and none who died on that dreadful day....and wish peace for their families and friends

[ummmm]

I don't think peace will ever come for them.

[RATTER15]

I totally agree with you Naomi!!

“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things, but for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.”

[naomi24]

My, my. That ruffled your feathers, jno. How dare anyone criticise religion?!!! Yes, all sorts of people have been responsible for evil deeds, but that doesn't negate the horrors committed in the name of Islam on 9/11.

[jno]

I was taking issue with what Pascal said (and with what you quoted): that men NEVER do evil etc. Yes they do, and I gave you a list of examples. Pascal was wrong and you are wrong.

[naomi24]

I don't think so, jno. Let us not forget that in the case of religion the impetus stems from something far more than a quest for power - and likewise, let us not overlook the promised rewards!

[jomifl]

I didn't get the impression that hitler, stalin or pol pot.were particularly cheerfully. I cannot recall any examples of apolitical atheists killing people for being religious. The aforementioned bunch of villans killed people for political reasons. That is to say they killed people who opposed their ideology (which could be considered to be a form of atheistic religion )

[jomifl]

to jno.. Pascal qualified his statement with ' so completely' which in my understanding of English grammar means that he admits that men do evil but religious men do it more completely. Was that difficult?

[naomi24]

I call it selective editing, jomifl. We see a lot of it around here. ;o)

[Clanad]

Not that it will carry any noticeable weight in this philosophical argument, but balancing the good accomplished by religions (especially Christianity) with the "evil" is important, in my world view.

For example... almost all of the Civil Rights movements, whereby entire races of peoples gained and are continuing to gain freedoms and equality were begun in Christian Churches here in the U.S. (Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr., as example). Whereas the attempted extermination of an entire race (based, primarily on their religion as well as ethnicity) was done by a basically athiest governing body (regardless of the religious affiliation of the citizens).
In England, Evangelical Wilber Wilberforce who was the leading proponent of eradicating the British slave trade (in the late 1700's Britain's ships were carrying 50,000 slaves a year) was finally successful after decades of work, when,in 1833, the 'Abolition of Slavery Act' was passed... and on and on. (Over 500,000 men died in the U.S. during the Civil War, which was, at it's heart, fought to free the slaves... imported to the U.S. ... mostly by the British).
More than half of the hospitals in the U.S. are Church affiliated and supported. Missionaries teach not only the Gospel but also schools of all grades as well as establish volunteer medical clinics throughout the 3rd world.

The Red Crescent is also a force for relief of suffering, supported by the Muslims.
Someone said "Extremism is bad. Nobody likes it except the ones acting extreme"...

Balance is important, no?... I'm just saying...

Re: Pascal: "On November 23, 1654, Pascal experienced a "definitive conversion" during a vision of the crucifixion:

"From about half-past ten in the evening until about half-past twelve … FIRE … God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, and not of the philosophers and savants. Certitud

[Clanad]

... Last part of quote, which was cut-off: "... Certitude. Feeling. Joy. Peace."

He recorded the experience (called the "Mé;morial") on a piece of parchment, which he carried with him the rest of his life, sewed inside his coat. "

[bibblebub]

the future looks bright http://tinyurl.com/39ruvzo

[jno]

I edited nothing; I used the word 'etc' to save having to type out the whole sentence, because naomi had already quoted it in the original question, but I was discussing the whole sentence none the less. And I am saying that Khmer Rouge evil was every bit as 'complete' (and, for that matter, as 'cheerful') as 9/11, despite the fact that they were not doing it with religious conviction, and that Pascal was therefore wrong.

[dr b]

jno, in fairness to Pascal he did not live long enough to see these modern day evil-doers. If he had I'm certain his quote would have been "Except for Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and the Rwandan killers, men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it with religious conviction." (If he was a liberal he would have added GW Bush to the list; if a conservative, Obama.)

[jno]

maybe, dr b - I'm not sure on what he was basing his claim - the Spanish inquisition perhaps? But naomi certainly knows about them, and she's quoted Pascal without demur. So it still seems worthwhile asserting that he was wrong and that religion isn't uniquely linked to complete and cheerful wickedness.

[naomi24]

Well, I disagree with you jno. Religion, although political, clearly pursues a much wider agenda and wields a bigger personal carrot than politics alone. I do believe you were purposefully selective in your editing of the sentence, but having said that I find it rather strange that you should be happy to liken the mindset of the perpetrators of 9/11 to that of the Khmer Rouge. In fact in your usual determined effort to leap to the defence of the religious I'm not sure you realise you've done it - but you have.