Still limping along lifes rocky road ....

[Theland1]

I do not feel that my question in the previous thread was adequately answered.
The evidence for a first causeis based on our experience of cause and effect. Nothing in our experience can ever explain the beginning of all things.
The Bible amazingly prophesies the recent history of the Jews and Israel, and Jerusalem still remains the stumbling stone for the nations as the scriptures predicted.
Prophecy is a powerful argument for a power greater than ourselves.
Science can only begin its explanation after a few milliseconds into the existence of the universe, when all of the material, energy, natural laws and the ingredients for beer were already in existence.
Oh my God! We've had a general election since I was last on here.
The result of that must surely prove the existence of the Devil!
So I'll put on my armour and await the slings and arrows and dog muck that normally take to the air in response to my innocent suggestions that the possibility of a Creator God cannot be ruled out.
So the question(s) are implicit in the text above. Aren't they?

[trt]

Blimey Theland, that's a bit heavy for a Saturday night/Sunday morning!

[Theland1]

Yeah, I know. Just having a period of respite and making the most of it.
On a lighter note, we have now entered that part of the year where, "'Tis," and "Twas," once again become common parlance. i.e. "Tis the season etc etc", and, "Twas the night before my housing benefit got paid etc etc"
Quaint innit?

[Theland1]

It was nice to instantly recognise some names from the past .... Mibs, Nims, Wiz, Chakka, and a few others, but conspicuous by absence was Waldo, and the musicologist Lunar.
Any clues?

[mibn2cweus]

Given 2000 odd years, any prophesies concerning Israel are bound for self-fulfillment, especially those anticipating the same old, same old, god is on our side, business as usual. So why am I responding to this at all when all hope that it would make any difference at all has long vanished? Must be love . . . the only rational explanation I can find for my own obvious irrationality . . . dam you!

Anyways, the ingredients for beer weren't made available until billions of years of stellar and the required life form evolution had transpired . . . so there!

[Mamyalynne]

I really cannot decipher all that but I wish you a peaceful nights rest. ♥

[LazyGun]

You continually circle around the same point Theland, saying the same thing time after time. Your argument is, at its heart, both circular, and an argument from personal incredulity - You cannot conceive of anything other than a supernatural agent as first cause - Never mind all the philosophical problems that such a notional being brings along with it.

Your assertions re the Bible and prophecy can not ever be accepted as verifiable evidence, simply because prophecy is so open to a multitude of interpretations. Its my understanding that the Bible as we know it today is not any sort of original document anyway, but a cobbled together artifact, and is full -choc-a-bloc full- of contemporary fallacies - so why should we put any sort of faith in it? It most certainly cannot be held up as an example of the inerrant word of God.

Now, you can believe in a God if you wish, thats entirely up to you - but your God is a God of increasingly smaller Gaps. Why invoke the supernatural when such events can be explained through rather boring and mundane natural phenomena?

[naomi24]

Theland, why don't you believe in other prophesies - those of Nostradamus for example? Here's a list of all his prophesies that are purported to have come true - and he often gave dates, which is more than the bible ever did.

http://www.buzzle.com...s-that-came-true.html

You can make anything fit if you try hard enough. You say nothing in our experience can ever explain the beginning of all things, but it would have been more correct to say 'nothing in our CURRENT experience can explain the beginning of all things'. As I said, you can't attribute one unknown to another unknown and it's nonsense to try.

In answer to your other question, Waldo is still around but Luna seems to have disappeared.

[beso]

Recent fulfillment of Biblical prophecies have been done by the the faithful following the script. This is why the believers are so dangerous. They are still working on their cherished Armageddon.

Early stuff such as the Jesus myth was simply made up to match the Old Testament story when they wrote the second episode. Not they were particularly precise. Jesus was supposed to be called Emanuel but the editors missed that bit.

[jomifl]

Of course the existence of a creator cannot be ruled out, but then what can be ruled out? Since natural scales seem to go from vanishingly small to infinitely large it depends where you think the transition point between vanishingly small and non-existent is. It is just a matter of personal judgement. So in my opinion the answer to you other thread is 'no'. Others will disagree and may be right.

[wildwood]

Someone on AB once wrote that the universe is really a stupendously large (compared to us) creature. The Sun and Planets represent one cell and this galaxy makes up a gene.

Seeing there is an uncountable number of galaxies, even this theory makes more sense than religion.

[Andyvon]

I don't believe the universe was created by a Creator Theland. I think the reason we don't understand the beginning of everything is that human intellect and comprehension simply haven't advanced to that point. Expecting ourselves to understand the Big Bang and the creation of life would be similar to expecting someone suddenly transported here from the Stone Age to understand the complexities of modern nuclear physics.

Perhaps one day Mankind will develop intellectually to the point where we can gain some understanding of the birth of the universe and of life - but I think that will probably take many more centuries, if at all.

[beso]

Andyvon. I am a bit more optimistic and expect to see a major breakthrough in our understanding of the nature of existence in my own lifetime.

See how far we have come in a century. General Relativity is only 95 years old. I can't see that the next step is so huge.

[Andyvon]

Possibly Beso. I would like to think we will see major advances in our time. However, humans do tend to overestimate their abilities and I think comprehending the moment of creation of everything might be one of them. I do think that discovering the key to the creation and propogation of life is much nearer though. I hope so as I would like to see that day and understand how life formed.

[Theland1]

Christmas is the great Christian Festival, but also commemorates the first international boxing match, when Luke Dowte was thrashed by Gudkin Wenchelause.
Immortalised in the song, "Gudkin Wenchelause lashed Luke Dowte, on the feast of Stephen."

[beso]

Andy:

I am fairly satisfied that the question of the origin of life has been answered. The process of serpentinization of olivine in ocean floor hydrothermal vents involves chemical processes identical to the most fundamental of all biological metabolic processes.

This reduction process liberates free protons and is carried out in mineral structures similar in size to the most ancient types of cells.

Once it becomes widely accepted watch how the faithful will latch onto the involvement of the "serpent" as proof of the divinity of the Bible.

[Andyvon]

Yes, I think biologists are getting very close Beso.

However, that one process surely wouldn't be unique to the creation of life would it? I can't imagine that the universe is anything other than teeming with different life forms so there must be many varied chemical processes giving birth to those different life forms.

[beso]

I expect that it is the primary mechanism that occurs on geologically active rocky planets with water oceans. How it progressed from this basic metabolic step would include a multitude of variations. I expect in many places life did not progress beyond the single cell.

In other environments there are likely to be other mechanisms but it is much harder to conceive of the possibilities than to observe the one that does take place on our own planet.

[WaldoMcFroog]

Never fear, Theland. I'm still about and ready to destroy your same old arguments!

What caused the first cause,Theland?

Your answer will, of course, be to retreat into special pleading that first causes don't apply to your creator god in the way that you are adamant they must to everything else.

[chakka35]

Waldo, why do you bother? We have both destroyed his arguments, if you can call them that, and he never responds.
Leave Theland with his philosophy of 'my mind is made up, don't confuse me with reason'. He's happy that way and you have better things to think about.