Is it religion that's the problem, or just people?

[ludwig]

Is religion directly responsible for this kind of barbarism, or will people always find reasons to want to kill each other?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/...d-south-asia-11930849

[miacat]

I think organised religion has a lot to answer for but only insofar as it's run by people (if you see what I mean....)

[DTCwordfan]

In my opinion, the latter. Those we fear, some of us eliminate......an unfortunate fact of life and history.

[jno]

I think the latest UK murder rate was about 650 a year. At a guess, I'd say zero of these were religion-based (though there may have been some 'honour killings' among them). That would suggest we are happy to kill without a religious purpose.

[miacat]

How tragic (but true) jno

[naomi24]

Since the charge is one of blasphemy, clearly religion is directly responsible for this kind of barbarism. Without religion the concept of blasphemy wouldn't exist.

[Huderon]

No, it's people who are responsible, religion is just the excuse they use to do what they want to.

[KARL]

Religion has often been used as a tool to intimidate, control, dominate, rule and worse and so it continues to be - in this case it is (to me at least) being used for the worst possible purpose. In societies where impartial laws and their enforcement are either weak or absent, and religious observance is enforced by peer pressure, then alleged religious infringement of some sort is an obviously easy way to target anyone you choose (such as someone you dislike or compete with in some way). All it takes is a lack of scruples (a bit of ignorance is also helpful) on the part of the accuser, there will then be little if any resistance toward the inevitable "rubber stamp" conviction because anyone providing resistance risks being branded as just another traitor/blasphemer. Today this scenario is seen in Pakistan and some other countries, we have seen it in Christian societies up to very recent times. The same process was/is behind all manner of other orthodoxies, and in the USA a frightening number of people take the attitude that if you question/criticise any part of US policy or behaviour then you "hate Americans" and deserve contempt or worse. There is thus no substantive difference on this level between such Americans and the Pakistanis described in the piece. Small mindedness and ignorance is everywhere and religion is just one orthodoxy of lots that are taken too literally and too far by too many. The same applies to party, nationality, culture, race or any number of other labels that define orthodoxies. Humans are mentally well equipped animals that are still in the process of learning to make proper use of their abilities to reach their potential. Learning to put religion in its rightful place is just one stage in that process.

[LazyGun]

Man as a species will find plenty of reasons to be barbaric to others - primate tribalism, xenophobia and fear/hatred of anyone different will see to that.

Religion just offers a host a fun new artificial divisions to the mix, with the added benefit of moral sanction for such barbarism. Crusades, Inquisition, Death for heretics, Death for apostates, arguably the Holocaust, Patriarchal attitudes towards women, Martyrdom for suicide bombers, fatwahs and death sentences pronounced upon writers, cartoonists, fundamentalist whackaloons calling for religious law and death to soldiers, ugly, repressive theocracies such as Iran.... the list goes on.

Man can be bloody as it is - we could really do without religion offering further nonsensical reasons for barbarity.

[wildwood]

The scary thing is that there are quite a few of the Islamic persuasion who genuinely think this is warranted.

[mibn2cweus]

This snap shot of reality should give anyone who adheres to a belief in a god, any god, pause to stop and reflect on what they've signed onto. This situation is an inevitable consequence of adopting faith as an alternative to reason, the blind alley and dead end to which all such paths ultimately lead.

Feeling a wee bit guilty? Good. If not then you are destined to become just as bad as the worst amongst them . . . if you're not already there. Those who define humanity as inherently evil are only defining themselves and those who subscribe to the same definition.

There is only one just reason to kill another human being and that is when necessary to defend oneself from those who refuse to reason, those who view reason only as an excuse to abandon reason, a choice for which there is no excuse.

This is just one of any number of ways reality compensates those who attempt to evade, ignore, and deny it. Those who see reality as the enemy have made it so by neglecting or refusing to make it anything it else, blinding themselves to their own responsibility to envision and realise what it could and should be.

[ludwig]

Good answers. I've always been of the opinion that if religion disappeared, there'd be just as much 'evil' being dished out, we'd just find different ways to excuse it, but my opinion's changing.

In this specific case, you have to say that without a religious element there wouldn't be a law in place to provide the initial excuse, a whole load of people ganging up to murder the woman and her family, and a set of authority figures happy to condone the murder. It just wouldn't be happening.

jno quotes sthe UK murder rate, but I don't think it's relevant - after all, this is a secular society. If you want to examine how religion affects a society you have to look at a place where it plays a predominant role like Pakistan.

If you go back a few hundred years to when British society was equally religious, you'll find very similar things happening here to the above. People being singled out for murder, whipped up by religious hysteria and nonsense.
A witch hunt is basically what's happening there.

This sentence from lazygun sums it up best I think.

// Man can be bloody as it is - we could really do without religion offering further nonsensical reasons for barbarity. //

[Davethedog]

Wildwood - its not just "quite a few of the Islamic persuasion" fundemental christians in the US are as frightening, but don't have as much state support.

The same can be said of the fundementalists from nearly every religion. Thes people have a 100% conviction that thier way is the right way.

Because of this they have no fear, so what the rest of the rational people on this planet require, is for them all to meet thier god, the sooner the better.

[jno]

Ludwig, you said 'people' rather than specifically British people. But my answer is basically the same. If religion is a major driver of murder (say), then a fairly secular society like Britain should have a lot less of it; but this doesn't really seem to be the case. A religious society will have religious crimes like blasphemy. A more capitalism-based society like ours will concentrate more on capitalist crimes (theft, cheque fraud, muugging old women for their pension money). The most 'lawless' societies often seem to be the ones with a drugs economy, like Mexico, rather than those with a strong religious element - but again, that's a capitalist crime, based on money, rather than a religion-based one.

[Davethedog]

JNO can you attribute murders just in the name of religion YES Can you attribute all murders to religion NO. Religion and murder are not co dependant however people do use it as an excuse.

650 murders in Britain In 2002 over 16,000 murdered in the US as this shows we are not as bad as many.

http://www.nationmast...me-murders-per-capita

Religion and murder are not co dependant however

[keyplus90]

First of all being Pakistani I feel gutted when these things happen. But having said that there are so many scenarios. No doubt that usually these incidents 99.99% are always personal conflicts and people blame others for blasphemy (although nowhere in Islam it is allowed that individuals should take law in their own hands, and justice system should be able to deal with that). That is the reason that once in the court all these charges are usually dropped and there is not even a single incident in Pakistan where someone was punished.

Then it is not only Non Muslims, these incidents have happened even to Muslims. One thing is 100% that almost all of these incidents are in very remote villages.
Then there are other issues. Because of religious reasons few people have used these sorts of incidents to claim easy asylum in Western countries.

All in all to answer your question, yes religions have been used by individuals for their own benefits as it fits and people would always find something to justify their own acts.

[mibn2cweus]

As a potentially rational species, provided that we learn how to employ reason, our choices and actions are largely guided in principle by the system of beliefs we’ve acquired and adopted. Religions of all sorts have proved time and again at best inadequate and just as often counterproductive in the formulation and realisation of a system of beliefs which by virtue of their correspondence to reality provides a useable framework on which to build a viable body of guiding principals that promotes and sustains mutually beneficial cooperation in the struggle to secure the freedoms essential to acknowledging personal responsibility and achieving independence.

Justice and fairness are unavoidably and inescapably sown into the fabric of reality but the burden rests upon us to seek out and discover it so that it serves our mutual best interests. Reality has no stake in the outcome but will see to it that we benefit from or suffer the consequences of our success in or failure to acquiesce. We can reasonably only hope to reap that which we sow and that we do and always will. Whether that ultimately proves to be a blessing or a curse rests squarely on our shoulders.

[jno]

Davethedog, no, we're we're much better than many. The USA is much worse. But they too are a secular society. Many individual people are religious there, more than here; but I doubt that many of the murders there are religious-inspired. So that's what I'm saying: there are many causes of murder, religion may be one of them, but lack of religion doesn't seem to have any effect on the overall rate. So, yes, people will always find reasons to want to kill each other.

[Davethedog]

Jno How many people on 7/7 would be alive today if it wasn't for religion 9/11.

In Kashmir, Pakistan, India, Indonesia.

You acnnoy talk about murder and just because the majority deny that religion has no involvement.

As for the US I am willing to bet that per capita they are not as secular as most of Western europe. Religion is fierce South of the Mason - Dixon line.

[jno]

Davethedog, the USA is secular, it was deliberately founded that way, though as I said it has very many religious citizens. And yes, 7/7 and 9/11 were inspired by religion. But they were pretty much one-offs in their respective countries. I'm just answering ludwig's original question here. Religion or no religion, people kill each other.

[naomi24]

Yes, it's true. Religion or no religion, people do kill each other, but it just so happens that whilst these spiteful women have no doubt been less than honest in order to corner an 'enemy', they have employed religion to achieve their aim, and therefore religion is instrumental here - and very much so. Whether you attempt to excuse this by offering worldwide murder statistics, by talking about secular societies, or by saying it happens mainly in villages (where I can only presume you concede people are uneducated - so nothing to be proud of), the fact remains that 'blasphemy' is the charge, that charge can relate only to religion, and it is a charge no different to the one levelled at Salman Rushdie or to the Danish cartoonist who drew pictures of Mohammed, both apparently offending Islam. Where Islam is concerned, tolerance, it appears, works only one way. But that aside, whatever the religion, blasphemy is an antiquated, nonsensical law that denies freedom of speech, and one that in any civilised, progressive, society would be abandoned without hesitation. Thank God(?) we in this country have abandoned it - and good for us I say! No more pathetic excuses, please!