Islamic idolatry

[jake-the-peg]

Islam makes a big play about not bowing down to graven idols. The fact that it forbids representations of Humans and animals etc is well known and there is a lot of criticism towards catholic practices of worhiping at the relics of saints etc.

Yet millons of them crown ito a stadium in Mecca circle a stone building and desperately try to kiss a black stone simply because they believe their phophet did the same.

Is this not a form of idolotry? Is it any different to Catholics worshipping infront of thorn of the supposed "crown of thorns"

[boxtops]

Since Islam as such didn't "begin" until AD600, I'd be surprised if the Islamic holy places are mentioned in the Bible which was largely written about 4 centuries beforehand - but I am prepared to be surprised.

[naomi24]

Ankou, I'm not trying to be anything, but you are clearly trying to create conflict as usual. I've responded to your post - which doesn't work. Jacob's stone cannot be the Kaaba.

[Ankou]

my inference was kaaba, bethel, stones. i suspect they are alll interlinked/copied etc etc. that was all.

[Ankou]

"you are clearly trying to create conflict as usual"

and what do you mean by that?

[naomi24]

Carry on Ankou. ;o)

[Ankou]

"Ah but the black stone is not a reminder of God is it?
It is a reminder of Mohammed who supposedly kissed it too and if that is permissable why not all sorts of souvenirs and relics."

not really jake. it was a white stone that 'turned black because of the sins of the sons of adam'. so to touch it as mohammed did (or someone back in the day) is to receive forgiveness and now seen as a tradition/religious requirement. so its ok, apparently.

[boxtops]

Ankou, would you not compare Muslims kissing the Black Stone to Christians kissing the crucifix in a Church ceremony? It's a religious ritual, not worshipping the item itself.

[Ankou]

parlty. i aint christian nor muslim boxy. it seems the difference is that christians kiss the feet/crucifix at easter as a sign of affection for jesus etc (idolatry). muslims kiss the stones for salvation.

i can't really split the difference, they are both traditional rituals that seem to have surpassed any "religious" significance.

[naomi24]

Pixi, I googled that. It's from Psalm 138. The direction of prayer refers to the site Solomon's temple in Jerusalem. Jews are supposed to face that direction when praying.

[jake-the-peg]

I'm not particularly suggesting that the black stone itself is worshipped.

It doesn't seem to me that any "idol" is worshipped - almost all "idoloters" seem to universersally say it is just a tool.

Catholic relics, Orthadox Icons etc. etc.

It does occur to me that when you look at such behavior from the outside it's difficult to see what's in the mind of the faithful and see whether that distinction gets lost in the heat of the moment

http://www.sacred-des...ne-crowd-ccc-omar.jpg

see what I mean?

[Ankou]

indeed! looks like a take that concert!

[jno]

I presume what the writers of the Bible had in mind was the worship of Baal, who as I remember was a generic name for the deities of rival tribes to the Israelites. The custom was for them to worship the actual cult object, maybe even sacrificing babies to it and so forth. I don't think they saw Baal as in any way separate from the idol (others may be able to correct me on this).

This appears to be quite different from what Christians do with crucifixes, Buddhists do with Buddha's tooth, Muslims do with the kaaba and so forth. These may be seen as more or less sacred objects but they are not seen as being gods themselves.

[WELSHYORKIE]

Excuse me for being flippant, but I though the Blarney stone was in Ireland

[beso]

Graven object abound in Catholicism. The crucifix is the primary example. There is a thin line between praying at something and worshiping it.

The Catholics create Saints and pray to them as though they have god-like powers. This is very close to the forbidden practice of worshiping of another god. Perhaps affiliated lesser gods are allowed.

AFAIK there is no reference in the Bible to the possession of extraordinary powers by any other than God (and His alter ego Jesus.)

The believers simply get around the problem by playing with the definitions. Rubbery definition and personal interpretation are pivotal concepts in all religion.

[keyplus90]

As far as I know no Muslim worships black stone. In Islam worship is only for one and only one God. Muslims kiss black stone because Muhammad (pbuh) kissed it, and he kissed it because according to him that stone is from Heaven and is here in this world until day of judgement. Usually to clarify the misconception most of the scholars mention one incident when Omar bin Khatab (the second Khalifa) after Muhammad (pbuh) kissed that black stone and categorically said that "Oh black stone I am kissing you only because I saw prophet kissing you otherwise you are just a stone and can neither benefit me nor harm me".

[naomi24]

Of course it's from 'heaven'. It's a meteorite.

[boxtops]

Indeed naomi, I seem to recall some stone in the Romano-Trojan history as also being "from Zeus" or similar - no doubt likewise fell from the sky and was seen to be a gift from the Gods.
Incidentally did you notice the military gent standing on the side of the Ka'aba in that clip? There is a soldier on duty round the clock there, in case the pilgrims get unruly in their fervour to reach the stone.

[naomi24]

Yes, I did Boxy. I find it all very silly - and very sad - but then you knew that. :o)