Showing Dissent In Football

[FredPuli43]

Instead of charging managers under FA Rule E (bringing the game into disrepute etc) when they complain about refereeing decisions, why don't the authorities have referees show a yellow card every time a player, or players, argue with the referee , complaining about a decision? Or is showing dissent, or disrespect, to the referee, not an offence under the Laws?

[Buenchico]

See Page 38:
http://www.thefa.com/~/media/my-football-resources/referee/laws-of-the-game-2012-13.ashx

[DangerUXD]

dissent is a yellow card offence, the referees are really their own worst enemies.

[Buenchico]

However you can't issue a yellow card to anyone other than a player, DangerUXD. Fred's post refers to managers.

[DangerUXD]

he does mention players: "...why don't the authorities have referees show a yellow card every time a player, or players, argue with the referee "

managers can also be yellow and red carded, even after the game.

[DangerUXD]

sorry buenchico it seems that the laws have changed. I can remember managers being booked and sent off in the past. When did that change?

[Buenchico]

>>>managers can also be yellow and red carded, even after the game.

It's many years since I was a ref, so I've just read all of the way through my link (above) to check that there has been no change in the relevant laws. (There haven't). A referee should report all relevant matters to the appropriate body (including misconduct by team officials) but he has no powers to formally 'caution' or 'send off' any official.

[Buenchico]

Crossed posts!

The laws haven't changed, per se. Individual competition rules may permit the referee to send an official away from the touchline, but there has never been a formal 'sending off' power.

[Stephen_G]

The Manager can be asked by the Referee to take a seat in the stands, but he can't show the Manager a card of any colour.

It's a bit of a tenuous link, but on a Soccer Saturday Christmas Special a few years ago, Jeff Stelling was Refereeing games and the panel (Phil Thompson/Charlie Nicholas, Matt Le Tissier/Paul Merson and a few of the others) were the coaches. He showed Phil Thompson a red card and Dermot Gallagher went mad with him afterwards, and told him that a Referee doesn't show a Manager a red card.

[FredPuli43]

In the current Everton game, the referee was approached by several players disputing a decision. His approach was to talk to them, explaining it. This is diplomatic, but holds up the game for no good reason as well a being an offence. If players knew they'd be cautioned for trying this tactic , they wouldn't even approach the referee. In rugby, of course, players never do it because just holding up the game means a loss of ten metres of ground and dissent may mean worse.

[Stephen_G]

I would much rather see the Referee ask the Captain to stand to one side and then say to everyone else "Go away, or, you'll be booked. I won't tell you again, and if you're already on a yellow card, that'll be your second and an early bath," or words to that effect, and then speak to the Captain and explain the situation.

[Old_Geezer]

Accepting the referee's judgment has to remain paramount, it has nevertheless always appeared to me that the idea of penalising someone for saying something disapproved of has removed the pastime from being a man's game. A certain amount of protest should be accepted surely. If you are going to ruin a contest between 2 teams by banning players from the field for minor issues then it sounds to me as if the importance of the official has superceded the reason for the game. One would need a greater show of disrespect than a simple short period of protest. Either that or advertise for non wimpy refs.

[jno]

in rugby I think queries have to go through the captain, so the ref has to deal with just two people. When not stomping on each others' goolies, rugby players are quite respectful to refs.

[ChillDoubt]

Exactly FredPuli43, it's one part of being a rugby referee I enjoy. I'm firm but fair with players, will tell them why I've given a decision(sometimes it's almost like a running commentary!) and have very little, if any comebacks.

I'm happy for a captain to ask me for clarification at a break in the game but any form of dissent and I march them back 10, no hesitation.

Football could clean itself up if their referee's applied the law as they ought to.

[ABerrant]

This thread highlights the resounding success of the FA Respect programme instituted in 2008 to combat the type of ill-disciplined behaviour described by the OP.

http://www.thefa.com/Leagues/Respect

"why don't the authorities have referees show a yellow card every time a player, or players, argue with the referee"

The FA Respect guidelines for Referees is for a public warning before cautions be issued in such a circumstance.

1. Only the captain can openly ask for clarification of a referee’s decision. This includes the period before, during and after a match.

2. If any other player challenges the referee, asks questions or harasses
the referee about decisions made, they should first be given a public warning. This is providing a player has not committed an offence which clearly falls under Law 12.

3. If a player, including the captain, openly harasses or challenges the referee, they should be cautioned and shown a yellow card.

4. If a player, including the captain, continues to harass or question decisions made by the referee, then a second yellow card should be shown and the player sent from the field of play.

http://www.thefa.com/~/media/my-football-resources/respect/refereesguide.ashx

Over and above the similar sanction for breach of Competion Rules, the FA Respect guidelines also stipulates:

1. If a manager/coach/team official berates either the referee or assistant referee or fourth official in a very public way in contravention of the Laws of the Game, he should be removed to the stand, and reported to The Football Association.

[FredPuli43]

Actually, ChillDoubt, a running commentary is just what refereeing an international rugby game sounds like. Interesting to hear, the referees being miked up, but perhaps necessary , given the incomprehensible laws of rugby nowadays ! You may have been ahead of your time.

[FredPuli43]

OG, I'm not sure that arguing with, berating, obstructing, or surrounding the referee should be seen as a 'minor matter', but, if it is, I offer an even less serious one which invariably brings serious consequences. That is removing the shirt after scoring a goal. That must be yellow-carded, and the player's second goal so celebrated requires the referee to send him off. If that's FIFA's logic, it's a wonder that dissent isn't automatically yellow-carded

[ChillDoubt]

I tend do do it for the benefit of the players Fred. At present I can only referee up to age 16 (club, schools and regional matches) until I am asked to move to Level 2, hopefully sometime this year.

Due to their ages, some players are not as au fait with the rules as others, hence I give a clear vocal and visual signal for each offence/infringement. I will also be very vocal when advantage is deemed over(so many ref's don't), leaving the players in no doubt.

Rugby is probably unique too in that players are often warned before they infringe ("don't go in there", "stay", "wait for the kicker to put you onside" etc)
and I do it constantly when officiating as again, the players benefit from it.

Furthermore, as safety is paramount I will remind players about their binding in scrums etc("that last scrum was good gents, let's see if we maintain that standard") and tell them when they've played good rugby("well done 7, in through the gate there, that was good") and they are always responsive and receptive to it.

The referee can often set the tone right from the off (plus both sides get a pre-match talk of what I expect and don't expect) which generally makes for good, enjoyable rugby which the players will take with them as they progress.

[FredPuli43]

Excellent, CD. To be adopted, as far as possible, in soccer. I look forward to Howard Webb yelling "Well done Rooney! Good vision!" and hearing the opposing team's response. More dissent, I shouldn't wonder.

[DangerUXD]

Any trap to a ref in rugby and they can reverse penalties and/or march 10.

Football would do well to follow this example and also 10mins in the bin for a yellow would clean it up big time because the managers would sort it.

[brionon]

Ref -the hardest job in Football and the lowest paid. If I were one I'd advocate a Strike over the insults they have to endure. How would the Multi Million pound industry survive then ??