Road rules4 mins ago
Railway Electrification
19 Answers
Forgive me if people think this is a stupid question, we had some MP on our local news programme, Calendar from Leeds, last night saying that various routes in Yorkshire are going to be electrified, Leeds to York for example.
My question is woudn't it be more cost effective to just lay a third rail along the route, as already exists in the Southern Region, rather than erecting overhead gantries and overhead cables.
My question is woudn't it be more cost effective to just lay a third rail along the route, as already exists in the Southern Region, rather than erecting overhead gantries and overhead cables.
Answers
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Docklands Light Railway uses a variation of third rail - side contact so the live "rail", to the side of the track, insulated top, bottom and far side. This is much safer and new installation is allowed under current H & S legislation But the main reason for using overhead on newly electrified routes is to allow through running from existing routes.
As has been said, there will be no more 3rd rail electrification in the UK. 3rd Rail running is now confined to the former Southern Region, two short lines in the Merseyside area, the line between Queens Park and Watford in north west London, a short stretch between Wimbledon and Putney Bridge (both these stretches are partly shared with London Underground trains using the four-rail system), some stretches of the North London line, the underground section of the Great Northern route between Drayton Park and Moorgate, and the eight mile long "Island Line" on the Isle of Wight.
There is an extensive programme of electrification across the north much of which is well advanced. The main routes in the programme are:
- Liverpool to Manchester, with connections to the West Coast Main Line. (Almost completed))
- Preston to Blackpool (Target late 2016)
- Manchester to Preston (December 2016)
- Manchester to Stalybridge (December 2016)
- Stalybridge to Leeds and York (Late 2018)
There is also a plan to electrify the Oxenholme to Windermere branch. This is in the planning stage.
Another major project currently in progress is the electrification of the route from London to Bristol and Cardiff. London to Reading and Oxford is due to go live in 2016 with the route to Cardiff being completed by 2017.
There is an extensive programme of electrification across the north much of which is well advanced. The main routes in the programme are:
- Liverpool to Manchester, with connections to the West Coast Main Line. (Almost completed))
- Preston to Blackpool (Target late 2016)
- Manchester to Preston (December 2016)
- Manchester to Stalybridge (December 2016)
- Stalybridge to Leeds and York (Late 2018)
There is also a plan to electrify the Oxenholme to Windermere branch. This is in the planning stage.
Another major project currently in progress is the electrification of the route from London to Bristol and Cardiff. London to Reading and Oxford is due to go live in 2016 with the route to Cardiff being completed by 2017.
Canary - do you have figures to back that up?
Each form of power has its weaknesses (eg third rail is more susceptible to flood). All routes suffer delays caused by "person on the line" whether or not infrastructure is damaged. In fact, London Underground (fourth rail, much the same as third rail) suffers most from "one unders".
Each form of power has its weaknesses (eg third rail is more susceptible to flood). All routes suffer delays caused by "person on the line" whether or not infrastructure is damaged. In fact, London Underground (fourth rail, much the same as third rail) suffers most from "one unders".
“…electric trains don't burn fossil fuels,”
Very true, mushroom – if you’re considering just at the “point of use”. However the UK’s electric railways draw their power from the National Grid. Since over 40% of the Grid’s power comes from coal and gas it is reasonable to assume that the same percentage of fossil fuel conversion is used to power the trains.
It is not practical to simply compare diesel and electric locomotives as diesel locos have to carry their “prime mover” (the diesel engine) and fuel around with them. As a very rough comparison class 91 locomotives (which, apart from those used on the Channel Tunnel Shuttle trains are among the most powerful electric locomotives in the UK and run on the East Coast Main Line) weigh about 80 tons and have a power output of about 6,300 horsepower. By contrast Class 66 diesel locos (mainly used for heavy freight haulage) are about seven feet longer, develop considerably less power (about 3,500 horsepower, depending on the variant) but weigh in at almost 130 tons. The 91s have the “Bo-Bo” wheel arrangement (eight wheels) whilst the 66s have the “Co-Co” setup (12 wheels). The extra wheels on the 66s are needed to carry the additional weight but also give the locos a tractive advantage. The 91s would be very difficult to use on the sort of trains that the 66s haul (heavy freight up to 1,200 tons for a single loco) and in fact, because of their considerably lower “tractive effort” (pulling ability) would probably be unable to start such a train at all. Conversely the 91s maximum speed is 140mph (and they have been recorded at higher speeds than that) whilst the 66s are limited to 75mph. In essence the 91s are racehorses and the 66s are the heavy horses used for ploughing.
In the UK a mixture of loco types is needed and will continue to do so probably indefinitely. This is because the majority of the network – especially the branches used mainly for freight – are not electrified and are unlikely to be converted because of the high capital costs..
Very true, mushroom – if you’re considering just at the “point of use”. However the UK’s electric railways draw their power from the National Grid. Since over 40% of the Grid’s power comes from coal and gas it is reasonable to assume that the same percentage of fossil fuel conversion is used to power the trains.
It is not practical to simply compare diesel and electric locomotives as diesel locos have to carry their “prime mover” (the diesel engine) and fuel around with them. As a very rough comparison class 91 locomotives (which, apart from those used on the Channel Tunnel Shuttle trains are among the most powerful electric locomotives in the UK and run on the East Coast Main Line) weigh about 80 tons and have a power output of about 6,300 horsepower. By contrast Class 66 diesel locos (mainly used for heavy freight haulage) are about seven feet longer, develop considerably less power (about 3,500 horsepower, depending on the variant) but weigh in at almost 130 tons. The 91s have the “Bo-Bo” wheel arrangement (eight wheels) whilst the 66s have the “Co-Co” setup (12 wheels). The extra wheels on the 66s are needed to carry the additional weight but also give the locos a tractive advantage. The 91s would be very difficult to use on the sort of trains that the 66s haul (heavy freight up to 1,200 tons for a single loco) and in fact, because of their considerably lower “tractive effort” (pulling ability) would probably be unable to start such a train at all. Conversely the 91s maximum speed is 140mph (and they have been recorded at higher speeds than that) whilst the 66s are limited to 75mph. In essence the 91s are racehorses and the 66s are the heavy horses used for ploughing.
In the UK a mixture of loco types is needed and will continue to do so probably indefinitely. This is because the majority of the network – especially the branches used mainly for freight – are not electrified and are unlikely to be converted because of the high capital costs..
//The 91s would be very difficult to use on the sort of trains that the 66s haul (heavy freight up to 1,200 tons for a single loco) and in fact, because of their considerably lower “tractive effort” (pulling ability) would probably be unable to start such a train at all.//
that's true. which is why the 92s were developed and built - 6760HP and tractive effort of 81,000lbf; originally used on channel tunnel services but now used for general freight duties on the wcml and from the end of this month, on the caledonian sleeper trains, which load to 16 coaches and are the heaviest passenger trains still operated in the UK.
that's true. which is why the 92s were developed and built - 6760HP and tractive effort of 81,000lbf; originally used on channel tunnel services but now used for general freight duties on the wcml and from the end of this month, on the caledonian sleeper trains, which load to 16 coaches and are the heaviest passenger trains still operated in the UK.
Quite so, mushroom, horses for courses.
The important point as far as this question goes is the penetration of electrified routes. If one takes the trunk routes out of the equation (which are used predominantly by passenger services) much of the network is not electrified. This includes most of the large solid fuel power stations and many of the large docks.
The important point as far as this question goes is the penetration of electrified routes. If one takes the trunk routes out of the equation (which are used predominantly by passenger services) much of the network is not electrified. This includes most of the large solid fuel power stations and many of the large docks.
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