holocaust

[tatoluver]

continiung from my last question: i meant what are some things that woudve happened if the holocaust never happened? for example what if he used all the jews in war instead of killing them? by the way think of ww2

[Dingoeater]

Difficult question to answer. I suspect some historians may dispute my opinion but I think without a certain level of racist sentiment Hitler could never have become the leader of Germany. As a consequence he was virtually mandated to "do something about the Jews". By "used all the Jews in war" do you mean that they should have been forced to fight like penal battalions or that they should have been used to produce materiel for the German war effort? Both ideas are almost as distasteful as extermination and it's a difficult question to answer but I would argue that a conscripted Jewish army would have fought poorly. I would further argue that a conscripted Jewish workforce *might* have added to the war effort but any such possible contribution would be difficult to quantify now, even with hindsight.

[lapislaz]

The Jews were used extensively by the Nazi's for factory duties etc. and many were literally worked to death. The main aim of the Nazi's was to achieve both goals at the same time - 'productivity' coupled with annihilation. They were forced to become slave labourers in the arms industry and were also used on major construction projects too. Then there were also the poor souls (many of them children) who were used as unwilling medical guinea pigs for doctors such as Josef Mengele (worth looking up on the web) . The idea of creatingg an unwilling fighting force is rather questionable in terms of effectiveness and, anyway, it wouldn't have changed a single thing because the end would still have been total defeat.

[onslow1]

Had Hitler managed to separate German nationalism from anti semetism he just may have been able to swing the German Jewish citizens behind him as he did so many others. Had he been able to utilise the full potential of the many Jewish scientists and intellectuals we may well have seen German nuclear weapons etc. and the war may have had a very different outcome.

[Lonnie]

Can I ask, why all these questions about Jews?, I don't think, in all the time i've been on A/B, anyone has singled out a people the way you have. As a Jew myself, I do find them slightly offensive.

Maybe you do have good reasons for asking them, but you never put them on your last post, and i'd appreciate it, if you gave them now. Thanks.

[Octavius]

Lonnie I don't think someone has to keep explaining to you why they are asking a question. Perhaps tatoluver is studying WW2 at school, who knows, it doesn't reallly matter. Ther questions seem genuine and fair and do not in my mind cause or constitute any offence. In fact, I believe it could expand the knowledge base of younger generations who may not have even heard of WW2, by questioning the very facts that shaped our (yes our) history.

tatoluver - I replied in your other post. The jewish (and other ethnic peoples) would never have been included in the acts of a pure aryan race especially for the cause of a Nazi regime. My other post goes into it further.

[Grunty]

The irony is that the Nazis defined Jews as people who had a Jewish grandparent. There are two men, each of whom may have been Hitler's grandfather. One was Heidler, from whom Hitler later took the surname. The other was Jewish.

[Lonnie]

Octavius. I take your point, but it still would be nice to know why tatoluver has asked these questions.

[tatoluver]

like i said it is a paper for history and i have nothing against jews!

[saintjohnny]

This is the problem when discussing matters such as this - there is always a knee jerk reaction. In my opinion, this is a perfectly legitimate question from a youngster who needs answers for a homework project. There will always be a Jew, Muslim, Christian, Hindu etc.etc. etc. who will claim "offence" as soon as their particular religion / ethnic origin crops up. And before anyone gets on their high horse, I am a 37 year old Jewish man!

[Lonnie]

I apologise, I didn't see the bit about History papers.

[lapislaz]

It seems quite possible to me that Hitler's rampant anti-semitism was exaggerated to hide the fact that (as Grunty explained above) one of his Grandfathers was Jewish. I think I heard it was on his paternal side but I might be wrong.

It could be that he was so worried about being discovered, he did everything he could to ensure his reputation as an anti-semite. Funnily enough, I've always thought Hitler looked more like Peter Sellers (who was Jewish) than Arnold Schwarzenegger anyway!

As for whether Israel would exist today without the holocaust: Well I think it probably would since Jewish settlement was already well-established from the late 19th Century due to the Pogroms (i.e. organised massacres and persecution) in Eastern Europe but whether they would have received UN backing for it as early as the 1940's is another question.

[saintjohnny]

I suspect that Israel in one form or another would still have been founded, although i was always led to believe that the original plan was to do so within the USA, probably somewhere in the mid west. I recall a documentary on the subject - as I understand it, Roosevelt was concerned at the level of anti semitism in the States would make it difficult to "sell" the idea to a war weary public. Probably would have been the sensible option given what is going on in the Middle East now.

[Lonnie]

Following on from the above post, I believe Uganda was offered to the Jews, but was turned down because it wasn't Gods Promised Land.

[sharx100]

they would never have fought due to their religion

[Pippa68]

I had always been informed (or misinformed!) that you were considered a Jew only if your mother was Jewish ~ I later heard someone say that it only came from the maternal line.

Hitler's mother was Jewish, therefore he was also?

I would agree with previous posts regarding this topic ~ I am pleased that the younger generation wish to know about the holocaust, the effects of the events etc. Without this need for knowledge it could all be forgotten..my great grandfather was Jewish & I have discussed WW2 with my children ~ although I would have done this even without having any Jewish ancestry.

[maglet]

Has anyone thought that through the Holocaust Hitler possibly denied the world of a doctor who could cure cancer, a musician that could teach Beethoven, a scientist that could discover a cure for Aids, an artist that could have painted better than Michaelangelo, a leader that could have bought world peace. We whether Jew, Christian, Muslim, Hindu etc have lost a generation of potential saviours because of the act of a regime.........and yet it still goes on Kosovo, Rwanda, Iraq will we never learn!!

[maxximus]

that's a question ten million native indians can't answer either.

[pugwashjw]

Not a single person in this whole link has given Almighty God any credit in that He can resurrect each and every person who was ever killed by the nazi regime. Their potential has not been lost. Just delayed. However, the ones responsible MAY never get a resurrection. But it is God's decision and justice that will answer this. Revelation 20;12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.

And...Rev. 21;8 "8 But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and fornicators and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This means the second death.�