Northern Ireland Assembly

[noxlumos]

The Assembly convened for the first time in nearly four years today and have six weeks to agree the make up of the local govt and until November to decide it finally. Does anyone think we can actually do this given that sectarian attacks are still going on ( 15 year old Catholic lad beaten to death by Protestants last week for example) and if not and govt is permanantly shifted to London how will that affect the "ongoing" peace process? Will we see a return to the dark days or will things improve? I'd welcome any thoughts anyone may have please.

[johnlambert]

I really really hope you never see a return to the dark days loxlumos.

That young lad beaten to death by protestants underlines the hatred that is still felt by both sides.

As you know I was over in NI from 1979 onwards (my last tour ended just after the Omagh outrage) and I encountered many good people from both sides of the community, and my lasting impression was that if the catholics and prostesants could put aside their religious differences, Ireland would be fantastic place to live.

[Kathyan]

Can I ask a question regarding Catholics and Protestants please? Do they not worship the same God and live by the same bible? If this is true then why can't they get along? By the way I am not religious!

[Drusilla1S]

As a point of interest, noxlumos, how many people on mainland UK (England, Scotland and Wales) support the continued rule of Northern Ireland by the UK government?

It's a question that never seems to get asked. We often hear about the views of the varying sides in the North and occasionally comments are televised from Eire, but I've never come across a survey about the views of the majority on the mainland.

Do British citizens support the continued rule, or is the government supporting the status quo because of tradition or a concern about political loss of face?

Personally, I have never been convinced by the historical reasoning behind the separation of North and South in the early twentieth century and see re-unification as an inevitability. I wonder how other 'mainlanders' feel.

[Lonnie]

It would be terrific if a deal was worked out, but I can't see it happening, I was in Derry just under a year ago, and you could cut the tensions with a knife.

My Sister-in Law, who is Catholic, told us to be very careful what we said, and the feeling I got, was that the place felt like a tinderbox. Obviously I don't know the situation elsewhere.

I'm sorry nox, but my view is that there will never be a complete peace in your beautiful Island.

[Tweed]

I wish people would stop claiming that it is religious intollerence that is causing the problems there. It is simply British imperialism that is the problem. Unionists/loyalists are the desendants of the planters who wish to be British, and most happen to be protestants of some description. Nationalists, most of whom are catholic, have always seen the British as an occupying force and have always resisted that occupation. The natives were treated with such contempt by the British from the start. How dare they not welcome the 'superior' British culture and rule.

N.I. was formed by the most undemocratic means, i.e. Ireland was divided so that the north east would be guaranteed a unionist majority in future elections. So much for the British being the mother of democracy. The unionists abused their power by discriminating against nationalists in the areas of housing, jobs, social development and any other area you can think of. It came to a point where the nationalists formed the civil rights movement, they were beaten, shot, murdered by the unionist controled RUC and british army. The IRA reformed to protect their people, because they couldn't rely on stormont or the british government and the rest is history. Even today unionists will fustrate any attempt at power sharing, so I wouldn't hold my breath that the latest round of talks will come to anything. As for sectarianism, it is often said by the media that it comes from both sides. It seems to be that if you say something about one side then you must also say it about the other.

[noxlumos]

Tweed puts forward very eloquently the whole situation there pretty much and some very valid points with regard to religion, non the less religion is very deeply entrenched there with politics although there are always the exception to the rule like Stephen Rea the Protestant Republican actor who was married to Dolores Price ( convicted IRA member). My brother was with a Protestant girl and they eventually split up because of the disgraceful behaviour of both of our families.It all gets horribly merged together for a lot of people and even there it's naturally assumed that Catholics are Republican and Protestants are Loyalist which tends to hold true 99% of the time.

What Drusilla says is interesting too and I've heard more passion in England for the continued rule in the Falklands than for staying involved in Ireland.People here seem to understand that it's an unwanted and unnatural state of affairs.

I don't personally think we can pull it off now. For a little while there was genuine optimism, but I feel now it was hardly anything short of a cynical attempt to get the IRA to disarm and I'm 100% certain that Paisely will scupper any genuine attempts at power sharing.I went back earlier this year and the atmosphere is very tense as lonnie rightly says, plus we'll be coming up to marching season soon and after that something's bound to have happened to upset someone or other, so I think my money goes on there being no valid agreement, or if an agreement is reached it won't be stuck to. I just then hope that all the disaffected don't flock to the Real IRA and other hardliners and it starts all over again.

[jno]

I can't see Britain ever giving up Northern Ireland, any more than it would give up the Falklands. (They would have held on to Hong Kong too, but that was quite clearly only on lease.) Yielding territory is seen as the ultimate shame in the modern world for any country (well, not just the modern world; wars have almost always been over territory).

I think however that most Brits below government level would be happy to see it go; it does nothing for the country but give it a bad name...

But I'm not so sure that Dublin actually wants it, though I think reunificaion is still in the constitution somewhere. As you say nuxlumos the enmities are so deeply ingrained that people are still killing each other out of sheer hatred. Why would the Irish want to sort that out, and how could they do so? The only reason I can think of would be the same dreamy notion of geographical integrity, of not giving up land.

Nonetheless, if I were Tony Blair I'd adopt the Hong Kong solution. Tell Ireland they can have the North back in 20 years. Those who want to move to the mainland can do so, with perhaps some financial assistance, and will have plenty of time to sort themselves out. After that they become expats, subject to local laws, for better or worse.

[jno]

PS nuxlumos I'm relieved to see that this thread has (so far) brought thoughtful answers, often based on experience. I noticed your protest on one of the more inflammatory threads that there was so much hatred swilling around, especially in the News section, that you didn't think it was worth staying on AB. So I'd just like to add that I have always found your contributions sensible and illuminating, and based on a much broader range of personal experience than I have myself; and I hope you don't go.

[noxlumos]

Cheers for that jno,that's a very nice thing to say. Actually I was having quite a bad and intolerant day that day myself and on reflection most people answer nicely and sensibly to most questions. I just got a big bogged down in the nastiness about the little girl that's became pregnant.

You're dead right what you say about the 20 year deadline being the best way forward, but sadly I doubt that'll ever happen.Keep hoping for a miracle though....