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Alternative Medicine
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Lets be serious here. Does any of this alternatine medicine actually work? As an aging hippy I have tried nearly every one that I can think of, with the exception of Reiki, which my normally conservative GP described, and I quote, "A lot of bollocks". I am not interested in personal stories, or life changing experiences, but how about some hard nosed scientific evidence.
Some of the postings about this issue are a little weak - and Im being kind...
Some of the postings about this issue are a little weak - and Im being kind...
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Well it depends entirely upon what you class as 'alternative medicine'. I am told that a large amount of physiotherapy is non-evidence based, but few people doubt how effective it is. I have studied this paper:
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/reprint/332/754 3/696?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT= &author1=Hsieh&fulltext=Acupressure&andorexact fulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec= relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT
in some detail, which demonstrates that acupressure is even more effective in treating low back pain than physiotherapy. I'm sure there are many more examples out there.
That's not to say that all alternative medicine is useful. Homeopathy is something that has been studied time and again and shown to be no more effective than placebo, although I can't actually quote any sources for that.
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/reprint/332/754 3/696?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT= &author1=Hsieh&fulltext=Acupressure&andorexact fulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec= relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT
in some detail, which demonstrates that acupressure is even more effective in treating low back pain than physiotherapy. I'm sure there are many more examples out there.
That's not to say that all alternative medicine is useful. Homeopathy is something that has been studied time and again and shown to be no more effective than placebo, although I can't actually quote any sources for that.
Depends what it is but your GP is correct about Reiki, he could also have use the same term for reflexology, Feng shui (or however you spell it) Homeopathy, cupping, laying on hands and all the other assorted bovine excrement that these charlatans use to seperate the gullible from their hard earned. There may be some herbal remedies that do some good but the above are complete and utter B0ll0cks!
It's funny, people say "just placebo" but placebo can be very powerful - Infact there have even been trials showing physiological changes (dopamine production) from placebo.
The major problem with alternative therapies is the vast majorities do not have explanations that make sense. I'm thinking here especially about homeopathic dilutions where there is less than a molecule of substance left - water apparently has a "memory" - Right that's a pretty outlandish theory - got any evidence for that - sure Homeopathy! - so not circular at all then!
There are a lot of studies on homeopathy but very few that were done double-blind and under really good circumstances - those ones tend not to show a particularly strong effect.
This one for example did not have a control group at all:
http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/pdfplus/10.10 89/acm.2005.11.793?cookieSet=1
conclusion- positive health changes
This one did - conclusion no effect
http://www.jrsm.org/cgi/content/abstract/96/2/ 60?ijkey=c24c91c0f5ab8afc6ff23f23ce108003aa97e 3a0&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha
This paper from 1998 reviewing trials up to that time suggested an effect thiat might be more than placebo but concluded there was insufficient evidence to conclude that it worked:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=9310601&dopt= medline
I would say alternative medecine has not yet passed or even come close to passing the "extra-ordinary claims require extra-ordinary evidence" test
The major problem with alternative therapies is the vast majorities do not have explanations that make sense. I'm thinking here especially about homeopathic dilutions where there is less than a molecule of substance left - water apparently has a "memory" - Right that's a pretty outlandish theory - got any evidence for that - sure Homeopathy! - so not circular at all then!
There are a lot of studies on homeopathy but very few that were done double-blind and under really good circumstances - those ones tend not to show a particularly strong effect.
This one for example did not have a control group at all:
http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/pdfplus/10.10 89/acm.2005.11.793?cookieSet=1
conclusion- positive health changes
This one did - conclusion no effect
http://www.jrsm.org/cgi/content/abstract/96/2/ 60?ijkey=c24c91c0f5ab8afc6ff23f23ce108003aa97e 3a0&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha
This paper from 1998 reviewing trials up to that time suggested an effect thiat might be more than placebo but concluded there was insufficient evidence to conclude that it worked:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=9310601&dopt= medline
I would say alternative medecine has not yet passed or even come close to passing the "extra-ordinary claims require extra-ordinary evidence" test
Well Kingy - I can sort of give you some hard-nosed evidence - I'm a clincial hypnotherapist and I've seen had people come to me who haven't been able to drive on a motorway for years and then can following two sessions with me - I've had a woman who couldn't leave her house and walk up the garden path, be able to do so following 60 minutes with me in her home. I've recently had a lady unable to use lifts, (she took a little longer to help) but she is now able to use them with no problems - so I suppose in a way it has proved that hypnotherapy (coupled with CBT) is useful - although it will not work for everyone but I have good success rates by and large. Perhaps the best and most rewarding client to date, has been a man with MS who struggled to get his food down, as he felt his swallowing reflex was getting weaker. Following hypnosis, he realised that his throat had been unaffected by his illness and it was anxiety that made his throat constrict so he struggled to eat. He is now eating very successfully and with relative ease.
I hope this gives you some kind of answer Doll xx
I hope this gives you some kind of answer Doll xx
reflexology is great, it does work, and scientists agree although they dont really know why (its proven) obviously massage of all kind helps as you are physically touching the body and manipulating it, such as deep tissue massage, shiatsu etc, Acupuncture has now been medically proven and as a drugs worker many of my clients who are users swear by it.
Herbal stuff does work, but not all of it and it depends on the person. Cupping does work when done correctly, i.e the cypriot/ middle eastern way as the way it is done over here is silly, its dumbed down alot. You are supposed to get a clear glass, heat it with a lighter by holding it in the glass for a few secs then place glass on persons back.
St johns wart is proven anti depressant, as are many many medicines used by doctors actually based on plants, i cant believe you didn't know that. Morphine, dihydrocodiene and other pain killers are based on opium flowers (where heroin comes from, and that def works) Other Menthol used im nearly all flu products come from Eucalyptus tree,
There is another prescribed medicine which is widely used and comes frm a plant but cant remember what it is. Remember many plants have active chemical compounds which are extracted for their use in western 'normal' prescribed medicine.
Oh, and cannabis is a good relaxant, pain killer and mental illness bringer on so dont smoke it!
Herbal stuff does work, but not all of it and it depends on the person. Cupping does work when done correctly, i.e the cypriot/ middle eastern way as the way it is done over here is silly, its dumbed down alot. You are supposed to get a clear glass, heat it with a lighter by holding it in the glass for a few secs then place glass on persons back.
St johns wart is proven anti depressant, as are many many medicines used by doctors actually based on plants, i cant believe you didn't know that. Morphine, dihydrocodiene and other pain killers are based on opium flowers (where heroin comes from, and that def works) Other Menthol used im nearly all flu products come from Eucalyptus tree,
There is another prescribed medicine which is widely used and comes frm a plant but cant remember what it is. Remember many plants have active chemical compounds which are extracted for their use in western 'normal' prescribed medicine.
Oh, and cannabis is a good relaxant, pain killer and mental illness bringer on so dont smoke it!
Reiki ********? I found the largest barrier to alternative medicine was the huge costs of scientific tests. Only governments and drug companies can afford the sort of tests that really assess a treatment, and few would want to fund anything that may take their own sources of income away if effective.
I'll go along with the hypnotherapy as it's one of my jobs, as well as being a reiki master.
Chronic injury pain has frequently responded to a few short sessions, one woman had a rash the doctors said takes 3 months to clear up and it faded almost away in a few days after one session. I don't understand it myself but it also brings clairvoyance to many healers and one I initiated drew the shape I traced on his back after seeing it with his eyes closed. So out of all the list apart from hypnotherapy I'd say reiki was more direct and could actually bypass many more complicated treatments.
I'll go along with the hypnotherapy as it's one of my jobs, as well as being a reiki master.
Chronic injury pain has frequently responded to a few short sessions, one woman had a rash the doctors said takes 3 months to clear up and it faded almost away in a few days after one session. I don't understand it myself but it also brings clairvoyance to many healers and one I initiated drew the shape I traced on his back after seeing it with his eyes closed. So out of all the list apart from hypnotherapy I'd say reiki was more direct and could actually bypass many more complicated treatments.
I work at a chiropractic clinic and see many people come in to us hardly able to move. After treatment (maybe even the first treatment) they feel better with more mobility and less pain. We even get gp referrals. Those who say that alternative therapies don't work should do more research on the subject and see both sides. I have also tried herbal medicines and find that St Johns Wort is especially good for mild depressions. So I believe in the effectiveness of alternative therapies because I have personal experience of many of them. Anything that makes people feel better is good eh?
Doctors are the first to tell you that alternative therapies are a load of bollox - but its only because they don't believe, and feel threatened by, something their scientific mind can't understand.
I had terrible allergies and an over-active thyroid, and these were both completely cured by my Homeopath - something years of treatment with medicine didnt help at all. Thats enough evidence for me...
When the Thyroid specialist tested my blood he couldnt believe it. It's not a placebo - I believe its something much more deep, something to do with string theory - things on an energy level that physicists don't know much about yet.
I'm also a Reiki healer, and reiki is an energy that works on the cause of illness (not 'effect' like medicine). Auras and energy fields have been scientifically proven to exist, but I think what the problem is, is medicine is too sceptical of this, and therefore scientists don't 'waste their time' investigating something they don't believe in.
I had terrible allergies and an over-active thyroid, and these were both completely cured by my Homeopath - something years of treatment with medicine didnt help at all. Thats enough evidence for me...
When the Thyroid specialist tested my blood he couldnt believe it. It's not a placebo - I believe its something much more deep, something to do with string theory - things on an energy level that physicists don't know much about yet.
I'm also a Reiki healer, and reiki is an energy that works on the cause of illness (not 'effect' like medicine). Auras and energy fields have been scientifically proven to exist, but I think what the problem is, is medicine is too sceptical of this, and therefore scientists don't 'waste their time' investigating something they don't believe in.
Homeopathy has been demonstrated to be total b0ll0cks in several double blind tests, not least of which was a BBC2 Horizon test where James Randi stood to lose $1m dollars. He kept the money. How can water that probably has at most one molecule of whatever it is be, anything other than a placebo effect? If you want and beleive it can work then that in itself is a powerful effect. Reiki?? perlease!
I recently started receiving chiropractic treatment after years of pain following disc surgery. I discovered that my spine had been out of alignment for a long time exascerbating my suffering. I hobbled into the clinic barely able to walk and a the treatment has significantly improved my mobility. I am now back at the gym and swimming.
Loosehead - just coz you're a sceptic doesnt mean it doesnt work. You obviously have no first hand experience of it, so what do you know?
My answer stated that I thought that when investigating placebo's (and likewise for that Horizon documentary) I think they are looking in the wrong places. (ie. what I said about String Theory). I also said that's enough evidence for me - I didnt say it had to be enough for you.
Re your placebo theory... Explain this: I tried every allergy medicine known to man, for years - but they never worked. Yet homeopathy did. That proves it wasn't a placebo - as the doctors prescriptions would have had the same effect.
In fact, don't explain it. I don't care about opinions from people that don't know what they're talking about.
If you tried Reiki, then you would believe. But you sound too scared to try anything!
My answer stated that I thought that when investigating placebo's (and likewise for that Horizon documentary) I think they are looking in the wrong places. (ie. what I said about String Theory). I also said that's enough evidence for me - I didnt say it had to be enough for you.
Re your placebo theory... Explain this: I tried every allergy medicine known to man, for years - but they never worked. Yet homeopathy did. That proves it wasn't a placebo - as the doctors prescriptions would have had the same effect.
In fact, don't explain it. I don't care about opinions from people that don't know what they're talking about.
If you tried Reiki, then you would believe. But you sound too scared to try anything!
Now this is fairly interesting and well informed set of responses.
Mind you, yet again I am not convinced by the supporters of any form "alternative" medicine.
A rash cleared up after a few days....mobility was increased....hardly convicing stuff is it??
Not to knock the example of the MS sufferer, but I work beside someone who has MS and some days they are perfectly OK and others they just can't make it to work.
The responses supporting alternative medicine really didn't give what I was looking for, ie hard nosed scientific evidence.
It's not out there is it??
Alternative medicine is really just faith based.....
Mind you, yet again I am not convinced by the supporters of any form "alternative" medicine.
A rash cleared up after a few days....mobility was increased....hardly convicing stuff is it??
Not to knock the example of the MS sufferer, but I work beside someone who has MS and some days they are perfectly OK and others they just can't make it to work.
The responses supporting alternative medicine really didn't give what I was looking for, ie hard nosed scientific evidence.
It's not out there is it??
Alternative medicine is really just faith based.....
As usual, glib comments about "sceptics" and "scientific minds". None of the comments here give any firm basis for the efficacy of alternative therapies, and I'm sorry to see more vague stuff about "energy fields" - the word "energy" is so beloved of alternative therapys' believers; on the one hand they resist any push for a physical explanation, yet at the same time will trot out semi-digested guff about "energy", their handy all-purpose general catch-all term.
I don't put doctors on a pedestal or revere them and I don't believe they know everything. And perhaps some of them do feel threatened but the majority will simply advocate and apply the methods they know, and leave it up to the patient to try, if they wish, a "therapy" that the doctor can't advise on.
The scattered reports of ailments clearing up are completely inconclusive. I accept the condition has cleared if the person says it did, but that's not proof the therapy had anything to do with it and besides, there are loads of others who weren't in any way helped by it.
One thing I do agree on: someone must undertake proper trials of these therapies. If insufficient resourcing means no comprehensive trials take place, this must be rectified somehow. I also suspect there's some truth in drug companies not wanting to spend money testing something that they can't patent if it does work.
By the way, chiropractice and clinical hypnotherapy were mentioned but personally I wouldn't rank those alongside nonsense like reiki. And David H, being a "reiki master" is meaningless. I know people, usually bored individuals with little else to do, who have half-heartedly undergone reiki "training" and been handed a certificate saying they're a reiki master after no time at all.
What exactly is the middle-eastern form of cupping? Because the version undergone by the likes of Paltrow, if different as you say, is definitely ********.
I don't put doctors on a pedestal or revere them and I don't believe they know everything. And perhaps some of them do feel threatened but the majority will simply advocate and apply the methods they know, and leave it up to the patient to try, if they wish, a "therapy" that the doctor can't advise on.
The scattered reports of ailments clearing up are completely inconclusive. I accept the condition has cleared if the person says it did, but that's not proof the therapy had anything to do with it and besides, there are loads of others who weren't in any way helped by it.
One thing I do agree on: someone must undertake proper trials of these therapies. If insufficient resourcing means no comprehensive trials take place, this must be rectified somehow. I also suspect there's some truth in drug companies not wanting to spend money testing something that they can't patent if it does work.
By the way, chiropractice and clinical hypnotherapy were mentioned but personally I wouldn't rank those alongside nonsense like reiki. And David H, being a "reiki master" is meaningless. I know people, usually bored individuals with little else to do, who have half-heartedly undergone reiki "training" and been handed a certificate saying they're a reiki master after no time at all.
What exactly is the middle-eastern form of cupping? Because the version undergone by the likes of Paltrow, if different as you say, is definitely ********.
If you'd have tried Reiki then you wouldn't be so damning about it.
Open your minds: Try it - THEN criticise it!!!
Also you should research it - as it only takes a few minutes for a Reiki attunement - but to practice as a Reiki Master you need to have experience & case studies.
I joined this site as I thought there might be well-informed intelligent people on it.. I was wrong. So I won't be back.
Open your minds: Try it - THEN criticise it!!!
Also you should research it - as it only takes a few minutes for a Reiki attunement - but to practice as a Reiki Master you need to have experience & case studies.
I joined this site as I thought there might be well-informed intelligent people on it.. I was wrong. So I won't be back.
The mantra of the knee-jerk defender of alternative therapies - "don't knock it til you've tried it." A superficially logical-sounding notion, but actually simplistic and lacking in forethought. I don't need to try it to know that SOME people recovering after reiki tells us nothing about its supposed method, efficacy or mechanism, nor proves that it's the reiki that's having any effect. People like the rather childish lady AK, who thankfully seems to have flounced off in a whispy huff because some people dared to disagree with her, like to say that if you question these methods, you're a "sceptic" and "closed-minded" but they fail to realise that we are in fact being open-minded by questioning it, asking how it works, wanting to see mechanistic proof. That some people recover is not proof. Lady AK and her ilk are the ones being stubborn and closed- minded by simply accepting it without question.
Contrary to what she said, her sulky departure increases the proportion of intelligent, well-informed people on this site. Good riddance to the intellectually lazy, who aren't prepared to actually THINK about these issues.
Contrary to what she said, her sulky departure increases the proportion of intelligent, well-informed people on this site. Good riddance to the intellectually lazy, who aren't prepared to actually THINK about these issues.
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