More Than 10000 Driving With More Than 12 Points.....madness

[ToraToraTora]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-40862975
I thought it had to be truly exceptional to not get banned for accumulating 12 points. Time to stop, set the max or force the beaks in law. Clearly they cannot be trusted to not get conned by smart aris briefs. There is apparently 1 "driver" with 51 points, how many times has he conned the beak? OK give some room for judgement but let's say 18 points is a ban, no discretion. What say you?

[New Judge]

“With 10,000 driving with more than 12 points, just how many are driving with 3 points or more?...those with points on their licence may outnumber those having a clean licence.”

It’s not quite that bad, Hymie. The latest data I can find is that of the UK’s 37.62m driving licence holders, some 3.37m (8.9%) have currently active penalty points.

“Ask yourself this, which is worse, exceeding the speed limit on four separate occasions or driving once while drunk? The law treats them equally in terms of the points awarded.”

Not quite correct. As I said, excess alcohol carries a mandatory immediate disqualification of 12 months (and often longer). No points are involved. Furthermore the offence carries a maximum sentence of six months’ custody. The maximum for speeding is a fine of £1,000 (£2,500 if on a motorway). Of course the simplest way for drivers to avoid falling victim to the government’s money making scam is to drive within the speed limits.

[ToraToraTora]

certainly would have been rare in the 70s, the points system started in 1988!

[Buenchico]

>>> When a driver serves a "totting up" ban his points tally is reset to zero. So why are those who currently have zero points being included in these figures (if indeed they are)?

Because the figures are simply for 'points on a licence', rather than for active points on a licence. If someone is banned for reaching 12 (or more) points on their licence then, as you correctly say, when they get their licence back there will no points that count towards totting up purposes on it. However their licence won't be 'clean'. If, say, a potential employer checks to see if there are points on a candidate's licence, they will still see the 'old' points up until 4 years after when they were added to it. It's such 'old' points which are included within the figures in that BBC report.

[New Judge]

Yes thanks for pointing that out, 'Chico.

That being the case then the report is useless because the numbers quoted must include all those who have accumulated twelve points and been disqualified, served their ban and returned to the road (provided less than four years have elapsed since the first offence that attracted points). In fact to present such endorsements as those "with points" is factually incorrect. Once a driver has been disqualified for totting he no longer has any points on his licence. What remains on his record are simply "endorsements" which record the offence (in the same way as if he had any endorsements which did not attract points at all). If such a driver applied for a job, although he would have to declare the offences he would be perfectly correct to say that he had no points on his licence (which is what most employers concentrate on for company insurance purposes).

If the numbers in the report do include drivers who have served a ban then it is utterly worthless to demonstrate the point that the BBC is trying to make.

[ToraToraTora]

Yes I too am indebted Chris, dam silly "stat", pretty meaningless as you say. No doubt there are still many with more than 12 active points so there is some validity in the premise of this discussion.

[New Judge]

Yes it's absolutely certain that there are many drivers who have accumulated twelve points and managed to avoid a ban. However the total is clearly less than 10,000 as a good proportion of that number must be in the category that Chris has highlighted.

[Hymie]

NJ – Based on your figure of 3.37 million having points on their licence, this works out at an average rate of 1.12 million per year.

If we assume that each person convicted of a speeding offence contributes £100 to the money making scam, that’s £112 million per year – and that figure excludes those who take the speed awareness course. So the total annual collection from this scam is likely to be circa £150 million per year (nice work if you can get it).

[New Judge]

Your estimate is almost certainly well below the mark, Hymie. £100 is the absolute minimum that anybody with points will have paid. Many pay considerably more than that. But of course speeding is not the only offence that attracts points. Many of those convicted (or who have accepted fixed penalties) will have committed other offences, some more serious such as driving with no insurance or licence, careless driving, red light offences.

But I do not agree that law enforcement is a scam. As I said, there is a simple way to avoid speeding fines.

[Old_Geezer]

When car hating councils apply ridiculous 20mph limits over many roads, your avoidance method becomes an unreasonable expectation/demand. No doubt if everyone complied, 5mph would be the next trick. Followed by an obligatory someone walking ahead waving a flag as warning.

[ludwig]

NJ // I have never agreed with the “exceptional hardship” (EH) clause which allows drivers to circumvent the totting-up rules. //

NJ. Me neither. There are plenty of crimes where punishment results in exceptional hardship for the people unlucky enough to be connected to the criminal. It's not used as a 'get out' clause for the criminal on other punishments, so a driving ban shouldn't be any different.