Camp X ray 'Britons' ?

[nedflanders]

Please give me your opinions on whether they have a charge to answer. Please note i don't want the usual innocent until proven guilty jargon I want your gut feeling on the basis of what you know to date.

[TommyC]

Can't see that there's a hard legal case to answer, because even if they had actually fought against American troops in battle in Afghanistan (which no one seems willing or able to confirm), as far as I know that's not actually a crime yet for a British citizen. But the whole world seems happy to go on ignoring the fact that they are still legitimate prisoners-of-war while occupation of Afghanistan continues, so even under the Geneva convention, they have no absolute right to be freed until hostilities end. Beyond that, as to whether the country should allow people to go on living here who have chosen to fight against Britain's strategic allies...That's a different question..! Personally, I would say "No", because it's fairly obviously against the interests of national security...!

[incitatus]

Hostilities in afghanistan have ended. Occupation is not a state of war. German pows were repatriated according to the geneva convention before the end of occupation. And as the us repeatedly states these are not pows. because if they were they would have rights. If you try to work out what they are the only answer you can come up with is Hostage. So the us has just released 5 hostages from Guantanamo. whoopee. As for charges, when evidence is presented to a court or a police station of a crime within the jurisdiction of the courts, then they should face charges. I have no idea wether such evidence is available. I doubt it. Fighting against allies COULD be construed as treason, but we do not have evidence that they were even doing that. all we know is they happen to have been in afghanistan. As for "allowing to remain", these are british citizens. when a citizen is guilty of a cr=ime they go to jail. You cant send them to anywhere else because this is where they are from. The national security thing is interesting In my opinion lending any support to Bush and his gangster mob was definitely against national security, but noone seems to have been locked up for doing it.

[nedflanders]

Hostages or Trainee Terrorists? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3546209.stm

[BadBob]

"All we know is they happen to have been in afghanistan" is true but you have to think about the context of that statement. I totally agree that people shouldnt be locked up for no reason but there are millions of people in Afghanistan who are still there, the Americans obviously thought that they were doing something they shouldn't be.

[incitatus]

apart from the logical inconsistency behind the statement "the americans thoought". maybe they did. but they did not charge them with an offence, or try them in a court of law, or allow them any of the normal rights accorded to any human legally held. Consequently they were illegaly held, i.e. kidnap victims or hostages.

[nedflanders]

In my view there is a very strong possibilty that these people were up to no good i.e. why would any british citizen be in afgh'n when there is a war on? They just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time? Whatever ! 9 Brits in the wrong place at the wrong time? Maybe the Americans didn't have enough evidence to charge them with anything and maybe they shouldn't have been held in camp x-ray but i do not believe for a second that these people are totally innocent and i hope that the press do not offer them money for their sob stories. If these people were in terrorist training camps just remember what we seen in spain yesterday! that is what these people are being trained to do!

[incitatus]

Ifs everywhere ned. When mosty of these folk went to afghanistan there was not a war on. it was just a country with a brutal repressive regime. And yet we allow tourists to go to china, burma and turkey without locking them up. We have seen no evidence that they were being trained as terrorists, freedom fighters or afghan pastry chefs. We have seen no evidence at all. If you believe the best way to defeat tyrants and terrorists is to behave like them you need to have a serious think.

[nedflanders]

Chill out dude ! But if you were over there and you knew that there was going to be a war would you not try to leave quickly? Plus please note that two tyranical regimes are no longer in power. I don't agree that locking a couple of hundred apprentice suicide bombers is hardly grounds for being accused of tyranny.

[incitatus]

prove that they were apprentice suicide bombers! apart from just saying so! This is the foundation of law, the need for proof. Without the protection of law you have tyranny. And locking up a couple of hundred people without lawyers, charges or evidence and with no access to a legal system is not only tyranny of a worse sort than that which set off the american revolution it is a breach of the international declaration of human rights, to which even the yanks are signatories. If we do not have the law to protect us from the state what do we have?

[BenDToy]

I am happy to answer the question, rather than get into the usual debate about these people's "rights". My gut feel and instinctive reaction is that the day they decided to align themselves with a country with whom we were at war, they surrendered their rights as British citizens. What on earth were they doing there? It's not exactly a tourist trap. One of them claims to have wandered into Afghanistan by accident. Yeah right!! A slight detour of about 700 miles across the harshest countryside you could imagine. These people were up to no good, and as usual this country is expected to protect them from the fate which they deserve. Next thing we'll have bin Laden claiming asylum here because he might get executed in his home country. And we'd give it!

[pezza.......]

I have to agree with BenDToy, as soon as these 'British' citizens stayed in Afghanistan past the start of the conflict, they should lose there rights to British protection. If they had a chance to fight against the British/US force I believe they would have. This happens time and time again, in situations like this where they feel they might gain financially, they become honourable British Citizens who had been treated badly. I wonder how many of the 'Tipton Taliban' will return to Afghanistan for another 'holiday'?

[pezza.......]

...their rights.... Sorry

[incitatus]

so now opinion equals proof. you believe they would have fought against this country therefore they are guilty. I repeat , what proof do we have that they were doing anything wrong? obviously none as they have been released so quickly. By your reckoning anyone caught in a war zone for any reason is guilty of treason. This makes it a tough old life for a good many people who get caught up in these things. we went from peace with afghanistan to war with it in the space of under a month. if you were up in the hills there how would you hear in time to get out? I cannot believe that in one breath you people claim to be pro democracy etc. and in the next you are happily destroying all the foundations on which it is built.

[incitatus]

and as there is at least one americophile amongst you, do you recognise this? "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" Is it simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time that nullifies this document, or do you think some evidence or legal procedure would be appropriate? If taxation without representation is tyranny, what is imprisonment without representation, or due process?

[nedflanders]

I respect what you are saying incitatus but evidence aside (or lack of) do you honestly beleive that these people were in the wrong place at the wrong time? a yes or no answer will suffice. Cheers.

[incitatus]

until someone proves the contrary I do yes. you see I am one of those people who believe in that innocent till proven jargon

[JohnPPotts]

Surely stating that you don't want the "innocent till proven guilty" jargon is pre-judging other people's responses? I agree with incitatus, it isn't a crime (even if it is inadvisable!) to visit a war zone and if the US couldn't get anything on them after imprisoning them without trial for several months, surely that's a pretty good indication there isn't any evidence to get?

[nedflanders]

No all i meant was i wanted your gut reaction. of course they are innocent until proven guilty but even though they have been released i still think that they were up to no good whether anyone can prove it or not IMHO.