Just A Thought

[jennyjoan]

Last night I watched the Yorkshire Farmer and his wife and 9 children running a farm. When I saw the child straddling a sheep I felt the sheep was uncomfortable with it and had to turn TV over.

So now I have come to the conclusion

Farmers not compassionate with their animals - just running a business

Vets not compassionate with their animals - just running a business

Breeders not compassionate with their animals - just running a business.

Then I ventured to Paul O'Grady and he restored my faith in compassion.

[andy-hughes]

Theland - // Is fox hunting not an effective way of controlling fox numbers, with the risk of TB in cattle?

Not taking sides here, but other methods don't seem to be effective? //

Firstly, foxes don't carry TB, so there is no need to cull them for that reason.

Secondly the evidence that fox hunting is an efficient way of keeping populations down is not strong.

The simple fact is, the country set excuse their behaviour by saying they are keen to keep fox populations under control - the reality is that more often that not they don't catch a fox, but the entire point of the exercise is to chase one animal with a pack of other animals for the bizarre entertainment of people who seem to think that such activity is acceptable in a civilised society.

[MartinMillar]

I suspect JJ would be horrified that my dad had to ring the necks of his flock of chickens because they got a horrible virus and would have all died a slow death.
It absolutely broke his heart to do it but it needed doing

[Atheist]

AH; 22:00
You'll really have a go at me for this, but...
When the slave trade was in full swing, the bosses and skippers treated their 'animals' in a similar way to the way that good vets, farmers etc do to what we now call animals. They had respect for them and treated them as well as they could; but they were realistic and they did need to make a living and so they do put them down if necessary, and they sent them off to lifelong servitude. If there wasn't a taboo against cannibalism, they would probably have fattened and slaughtered them if it paid. To suggest that non-human animals deserve some respect similar to what I think human animals deserve will no doubt be greeted with derision by some here. But I prefer my viewpoint to that of some religious people who believe that man was given dominion over the animals by god.

[woofgang]

atheist have you seen how slaves were packed in slave ships?

[woofgang]

Theland, when fox hunting was legal in the uk it had a closed season to enable the foxes to breed so as to maintain the population for hunting. The young foxhounds were taught to hunt by going out cubbing...hunting and killing the young foxes when they were old enough to leave the den but not yet adult. Not only was it not a good way to control fox numbers, it was designed not to be.

[Atheist]

woof; they were packed in the most economical way, just like battery hens, and with just enough space to keep them alive and fit for their function.

[woofgang]

I don't think that keeping hens as battery birds shows respect for them... and they packed them in so tightly because they knew that so many would die on the voyage. I don't think this demonstrates keeping them as well as they could. https://www.bl.uk/learning/timeline/item106661.html

[lankeela]

How odd that you think all of those don't have compassion for their animals yet you think a programme about Battersea which is full of dumped, abandoned and ill treated animals is ok. Animals which incidentally are bred by people who would have cared for them and treated by vets and other professionals to give them a chance of a decent life.

[woofgang]

lankeela some of the animals who end up dumped at Battersea and in other rescues were produced by pet animal farmers and back yard breeders only in it for the money who didn't give a toss. Yes there are good pet breeders who care about the animals they breed and I have known some, but the bad'uns are out there too.....but you know this.

[AuntPollyGrey]

AH //You clearly disagree with my assessment - care to say why?//

Wrong, I agree with most of what you have said re farm animals, I do not agree with your statements on Fox Hunting. My reply was mainly to JJ and those who see black and white between how people involved in animal husbandry view animals as opposed to Town people with pets. I had a pet sheep called maisie. I reared her on the bottle and she would run from a flock to come and see me . She had six sets of twin lambs over her life, then unfortunately just laid down and died one day in her field. I was just a sad at her passing as I would have been for one of our cats or dogs.

[pastafreak]

I've heard many stories of farmers bonding, and having affection for, their dairy cattle.
My ex MIL had 2 pet sheep when she lived in Scotland. The male was protective and I have a vivid memory of him butting my then 10 year old daughter from behind when she joined her granny in the field.

[ummmm]

My uncle is a shepherd. He has about 300 sheep. They have different personalities. There are about 6 or 7 of them that love human interaction and more or less live in the front garden.

[andy-hughes]

Atheist - // AH; 22:00
You'll really have a go at me for this, but...
When the slave trade was in full swing, the bosses and skippers treated their 'animals' in a similar way to the way that good vets, farmers etc do to what we now call animals. They had respect for them and treated them as well as they could; but they were realistic and they did need to make a living and so they do put them down if necessary, and they sent them off to lifelong servitude. If there wasn't a taboo against cannibalism, they would probably have fattened and slaughtered them if it paid. To suggest that non-human animals deserve some respect similar to what I think human animals deserve will no doubt be greeted with derision by some here. But I prefer my viewpoint to that of some religious people who believe that man was given dominion over the animals by god. //

I would not dispute your post in any way.

I entirely agree that slaves were regarded simple as a commodity, and treating them well enough to keep them alive was based entirely on economics rather than any sense of humanity.

The ethics of treating human beings in this way is for another debate on another day, but insofar as this thread is discussing attitudes to animals, either as economic products or as pets, then I would agree with what you have said.

[sanmac]

It's interesting to see that slave ships have been mentioned on this thread. I wonder what the Black Life Mob will do when they realize that the person on the back of the new five-pound note is JMW Turner. One of his paintings was titled "The Slave Ship" and is meant to portray some abhorrent happenings on these ships, and he did this painting because he was an abolitionist wanted people to be made aware of what was happening.. But perhaps the BLM will totally ignore this and carry on burning their 5 pound notes:)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Slave_Ship

[andy-hughes]

APG - // AH //You clearly disagree with my assessment - care to say why?//

Wrong, I agree with most of what you have said re farm animals, I do not agree with your statements on Fox Hunting. //

Once again - care to elaborate?

[AuntPollyGrey]

Andy-Hughes. I seriously do not know what you are poking at here when you want me to elaborate. Elaborate on what exactly? My opinions on the veterinary and farming professions are based on years living and working in an agricultural rural community. My views on Fox Hunting come from dozens of times having to go out hunting as part of my job on a point to point yard years ago. I was and am totally in favour of banning all Fox hunting with dogs including the 'pretend' Drag Hunts and have been arrested for hunt sabotage. My views on NH racing is based on working with these horses and riding in many ladies races P-T- P in the 1970's.
These are my opinions, based on what I've experienced. Its not all James Herriot in the countryside and there are some nasty cruel people who live in the countryside, but there are also plenty of nasty cruel people who live in the towns, so like I previously stated -its not Black or White.

[andy-hughes]

APG - // Andy-Hughes. I seriously do not know what you are poking at here when you want me to elaborate. Elaborate on what exactly? //

I am not 'poking' at anything - you said you disagreed with my view on fox hunting, and I asked you to explain why.

You have done so, and stated that you do not agree with fox hunting - which chimes entirely with my post at 20:34 - where I stated that I don't agree with it either.

So my question was, what don't you agree with in my view about fox hunting? Your response suggests that you don't disagree at all, but I would not wish to speak for you.

[andy-hughes]

APG - Here is the post you claim to disagree with -

// Firstly, foxes don't carry TB, so there is no need to cull them for that reason.

Secondly the evidence that fox hunting is an efficient way of keeping populations down is not strong.

The simple fact is, the country set excuse their behaviour by saying they are keen to keep fox populations under control - the reality is that more often that not they don't catch a fox, but the entire point of the exercise is to chase one animal with a pack of other animals for the bizarre entertainment of people who seem to think that such activity is acceptable in a civilised society. //

I think we maybe have crossed wires ... ?