News4 mins ago
The Brexiteers Are Continuing To Lie About The Vaccine Roll-Out
70 Answers
Just how many times do they have to be told that they are lying about the vaccine roll-out?
When will the Brexiteers stop telling lies in support of their failed pet project?
There are even ABers who believe these Brexiteer lies.
When will the Brexiteers stop telling lies in support of their failed pet project?
There are even ABers who believe these Brexiteer lies.
Answers
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// Why didn't [Gromit] use deaths per million?
That's right, it didn't suit [his] narrative. //
Just for the record, the UK's official* total deaths/million for Covid stands at around 3,350. By comparison, Germany and France stand at 2,100 and 2,550 on the same measure respectively. The EU as a whole stands at about 2,750. This hides significant variation among EU members, though, with many Eastern European countries clocking in higher rates, such as Hungary (4,900) and Croatia (4,550).
But even with that figure, I'm not sure of the narrative Gromit's pushing. There is, for example, no accounting in the above numbers** for eg population densities and other demographic factors (% of population over 60, for example, where health outcomes tended to get significantly worse); or for vaccine uptake, which was particularly poor in Croatia as an example.
But mostly, it's bizarre to me to juxtapose any of these figures (total deaths or total death rate if you like) with the date of vaccine approval. One might be forgiven for thinking that the UK "messed up" by introducing the vaccine earlier, and that this "premature decision" ended up worsening outcomes here. Also, in the particular question of whether the vaccine(s) saved lives or not by being introduced earlier, one should properly compare the death rates before and after its introduction, and the extent to which a three-week delay might have impacted them, which is a largely separate question from the total death (rate). Would the UK's death toll have been higher still had the vaccine been introduced three weeks later? Most probably. How much higher? Hard to say.
Disentangling these things is hard, and people already got bored of this comment three paragraphs ago, so I won't go any further here. None of this, however, changes the legal point that Brexit had no effect on the UK's ability to introduce and approve a vaccine as fast as it did.
*Two sources I'm looking at, https:/
** Plenty more data is provided at ourworldindata.org, so it's possible in principle to get some way towards addressing this by using their resources, but would take far more time and energy than I have right now.
That's right, it didn't suit [his] narrative. //
Just for the record, the UK's official* total deaths/million for Covid stands at around 3,350. By comparison, Germany and France stand at 2,100 and 2,550 on the same measure respectively. The EU as a whole stands at about 2,750. This hides significant variation among EU members, though, with many Eastern European countries clocking in higher rates, such as Hungary (4,900) and Croatia (4,550).
But even with that figure, I'm not sure of the narrative Gromit's pushing. There is, for example, no accounting in the above numbers** for eg population densities and other demographic factors (% of population over 60, for example, where health outcomes tended to get significantly worse); or for vaccine uptake, which was particularly poor in Croatia as an example.
But mostly, it's bizarre to me to juxtapose any of these figures (total deaths or total death rate if you like) with the date of vaccine approval. One might be forgiven for thinking that the UK "messed up" by introducing the vaccine earlier, and that this "premature decision" ended up worsening outcomes here. Also, in the particular question of whether the vaccine(s) saved lives or not by being introduced earlier, one should properly compare the death rates before and after its introduction, and the extent to which a three-week delay might have impacted them, which is a largely separate question from the total death (rate). Would the UK's death toll have been higher still had the vaccine been introduced three weeks later? Most probably. How much higher? Hard to say.
Disentangling these things is hard, and people already got bored of this comment three paragraphs ago, so I won't go any further here. None of this, however, changes the legal point that Brexit had no effect on the UK's ability to introduce and approve a vaccine as fast as it did.
*Two sources I'm looking at, https:/
** Plenty more data is provided at ourworldindata.org, so it's possible in principle to get some way towards addressing this by using their resources, but would take far more time and energy than I have right now.
-- answer removed --
//That’s pure speculation on your part, NJ.//
Indeed it is. But I would suggest that it is fairly well founded. No other EU country went it alone and the 27 among them have a wide variety of competences and capabilities. There is no doubt that some of them could have acted beyond the EU's apron strings, but none did.
//The Brexiteer logic to this issue is that although we could have done exactly what we did (with regards the Covid vaccine) regardless of whether we were in the EU or not – we did it when we were not in the EU, therefore it is a Brexit win.//
I can’t speak for anybody else but that is not my logic at all. My contention is that although we could have done exactly what we did (with regards the Covid vaccine) regardless of whether we were in the EU or not, we would not have done so. We would have joined in the EU’s programme as it was made quite clear at the time that individual nations would not be encouraged to go solo (translated from EU speak to read they would be positively discouraged – probably accompanied by sanctions of some sort - from doing so).
You can identify that as a Brexit win or not, it’s of no interest to me as I’m not particularly looking for such an animal.
Indeed it is. But I would suggest that it is fairly well founded. No other EU country went it alone and the 27 among them have a wide variety of competences and capabilities. There is no doubt that some of them could have acted beyond the EU's apron strings, but none did.
//The Brexiteer logic to this issue is that although we could have done exactly what we did (with regards the Covid vaccine) regardless of whether we were in the EU or not – we did it when we were not in the EU, therefore it is a Brexit win.//
I can’t speak for anybody else but that is not my logic at all. My contention is that although we could have done exactly what we did (with regards the Covid vaccine) regardless of whether we were in the EU or not, we would not have done so. We would have joined in the EU’s programme as it was made quite clear at the time that individual nations would not be encouraged to go solo (translated from EU speak to read they would be positively discouraged – probably accompanied by sanctions of some sort - from doing so).
You can identify that as a Brexit win or not, it’s of no interest to me as I’m not particularly looking for such an animal.
that the UK was faster than the EU to roll out a vaccine -- and I'm glad that they did -- but that was not linked in itself to Brexit.
clarabell you are saying the statement above is a non sequitur.
Dont go there, dont even bovva. For a start it is Latin, ( or ancient forrin as some of the thinkers on AB, call it). and no one on AB knows what one is, even if it bites them in the ja-jas.
do a crossword or some lines of knitting
also the vaccine didnt stop us having a higher mortality than other EU countries - but hey this is AB
clarabell you are saying the statement above is a non sequitur.
Dont go there, dont even bovva. For a start it is Latin, ( or ancient forrin as some of the thinkers on AB, call it). and no one on AB knows what one is, even if it bites them in the ja-jas.
do a crossword or some lines of knitting
also the vaccine didnt stop us having a higher mortality than other EU countries - but hey this is AB
Claretgold @15:49
\\Just for the record, the UK's official* total deaths/million for Covid stands at around 3,350. By comparison, Germany and France stand at 2,100 and 2,550 on the same measure respectively. The EU as a whole stands at about 2,750. This hides significant variation among EU members, though, with many Eastern European countries clocking in higher rates, such as Hungary (4,900) and Croatia (4,550).
We were using deaths from covid germany was using deaths with covid
\\Just for the record, the UK's official* total deaths/million for Covid stands at around 3,350. By comparison, Germany and France stand at 2,100 and 2,550 on the same measure respectively. The EU as a whole stands at about 2,750. This hides significant variation among EU members, though, with many Eastern European countries clocking in higher rates, such as Hungary (4,900) and Croatia (4,550).
We were using deaths from covid germany was using deaths with covid
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