Boy Beats Girl At Wrestling.... Shocker!

[ToraToraTora]

[Zacs-Master]

That’s a bit unclear. Do you mean the parent/s or the medical person present?

[ClareTG0ld]

I don't think it particularly matters either way, but in most cases it would be the medical person, no?

[Zacs-Master]

I dunno, I was asking you as you seem to be AB’s resident trans expert. Surprising your not too clear on this basic point. I would have thought there was some legality involved as a sort of benchmark for future decisions on their gender.

[naomi24]

No one is the gender they claim to be simply because that’s how they see themselves.

[ToraToraTora]

CTG: "No doubt the response here is to say that "well these are just rare cases", and yes they are not common, but even still if you have several million people who one way or another *don't* have the biology you'd expect then maybe it's worth taking notice of rather than just ignoring them or brushing them under the carpet. Biology is more complicated than you'd get from studing A-level biology. " - indeed but the problem arises when they want the world adjusted to them. Far worse is the standard male/female who think they can change and 99% of them are doing it because they have learned that woke TROB types will give them the attention they crave and do everything they can to impose their "rights" on the normal masses and force us to adjust our lives because they can and we have a society that is so liberalised we have teachers losing a debate to a 9 year old girl because some idiot child has learned that he can self identify as a cat and get his own way. This is the new fascism. Not as dangerous as the old fascism, yet, but fascism none the less.

[ToraToraTora]

naomi: "I don’t understand why anyone who’s taking drugs likely to enhance their performance is allowed to compete at all. " - good point, my headline should have been "Roided up girl beats another girl...."

[ClareTG0ld]

// I dunno, I was asking you as you seem to be AB’s resident trans expert. Surprising your not too clear on this basic point. I would have thought there was some legality involved as a sort of benchmark for future decisions on their gender.//

The words "assigned [male/female] at birth", though, are firstly quite standard in the topic these days. But I think it's fair to say that "assigned" applies more formality or thought than is really there. In most, I would say the vast majority of cases, out the baby pops (or up the 18-week scan comes) and everyone can see one way or another if it's a boy or a girl, and in such cases why would you need to think about it? And then that's what goes on the birth certificate.

On the other hand, in some proportion of births -- and, bearing in mind TTT's insistence that sex is entirely about chromosomes -- it turns out that either the genitalia are ambiguous, or mismatched to the chromosomes, or there will be some other set of sex chromosomes (XXX, XXY etc), and the visual "assignment" of sex is either wrong or misleading in another way. As far as I know, there's no legal rigour surrounding all of this, because for example intersex people often end up lumped into one sex or the other; and certainly there's no requirement, nor really should there be, for a chromosomal test for all live births.

And, likewise, since all of this is surrounding biological aspects of sex, rather than social aspects of gender, then although I read into it from time to time I would never wish to claim to be any kind of expert on it. As I hope the links in my earlier post show, though, there is more richness and complexity to the biology of sex than is often given credit for.

[ClareTG0ld]

// ... the problem arises when [intersex people] want the world adjusted to them. //

To this first point, asking for basic and equal recognition should hardly be a "problem", and most of the time that's actually what's happening and it's only the people opposing such recognition who pretend that it's more severe or demanding or some such.

// Far worse is the standard male/female who think they can change and 99% of them are doing it because they have learned that woke TROB types will give them the attention they crave ... //

This is a made-up stat and you know it. Barely even worth addressing the rest.

[naomi24]

Since more often than not there is no discrepancy, chromosomes aren’t an issue and concentrating on that detracts from the nitty gritty of the conversation. What ClareTGold calls ‘the social aspects of gender’ is more relevant … if that means what I think it means - people perceiving themselves to be something they’re not.

[Zacs-Master]

Ok, ClareT, it’s just that when you were explaining the situation to Tora, the ‘assigning’ seemed to be a vital part of the situation.

‘ Hence: a transgender woman (or trans woman) is someone who was assigned male at birth (ie grew up as a boy); a transgender boy/man is the opposite’

If the assignation of gender is something casual rather than a legally recognised definition, this gender thing all seems a bit arbitrary.

[Old_Geezer]

But the fact is that no one really transits as it isn't possible to do so, at least not yet. People labelled "trans" are simply those unable to accept their body and so mimic the sex they wish they were. (Life is easier when one is able to accept what one can not change.) If they are up front about their mimicking and don't expect others to lie in order to support the fantasy then that's fine.

As for sport; as long as any drugs/hormones/whatever that they are taking aren't banned by the sporting body for giving advantage, then sure, females, whether they live as females or males, compete in female or mixed events/competitions; similarly males, whether they live as females or males, compete in male or mixed events/competitions.

Sport can't be expected to encourage fantasies which would result in unfair matches. It has to base decisions on reality or find themselves in a right old twist trying and failing to please everyone.