Rome, Some 1,800 Years Ago

[Canary42]

Answerbank’s intolerant anti-LGBTQ brigade are going to love this one.

When in Rome . . . . . . . . . . . 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-67484645

 

[ToraToraTora]

Perlease!

[ToraToraTora]

.....and Fred Flintstone stone was really Freda! PMSL!

[naomi24]

Perhaps someone should tell the museum it's not in Rome.  

[jno]

he did horrify the conseratives of his day, as he would now.

https://blog.bham.ac.uk/historybham/lgbtqia-history-month-elagabalus-the-trans-emperor-of-rome-ollie-burns/

 

[ClareTG0ld]

I'm sure I could write for hours about this, and related historical stories, if anyone here were interested enough in engaging in a discussion about it. Suffice it to say, though, that:

1. The concept of LGBT as we understand it today can't always be neatly applied to the ancient world, particularly when it comes to any given individual person;

2. That becomes even more true when that person is unable to account for themselves directly - Elagabalus left behind no autobiographical testimony, as far as I am aware, and so the accounts we do have are written by other people who usually had some agenda and didn't seem to like Elagabalus much;

3. But, on the other hand, it's also evident that a lot of cultures, across the world and throughout history, have (or had) a rich and varied concept of gender identity and sexuality.

4. It's also important to highlight that transphobia is quite a recent development, and owes rather a lot more than some here might care to admit to a Christian (particularly Catholic, ie in the Western European tradition) moral view of sexuality and gender. A clear illustration of this might be attitudes to transgender people in various African cultures, which were to some extent quite accepting of non-traditional gender roles - until, that is, Christian missionaries came and (to oversimplify somewhat) changed their attitudes starting in the 19th Century.

 

All this means that it would be a crying shame if the discussion about transgender people in history becomes reduced to a debate about Elagabalus. There is so much more to the story than that.

[douglas9401]

"It comes after classical texts claim the emperor once said "call me not Lord, for I am a Lady"."

 

David Walliams is a classics scholar?

[10ClarionSt]

What have the Romans ever done for us? Man is man and woman is woman. Anyway, some might not want to be roMANs. They might want to be roWOMANs. And even then they've still got a MAN to contend with. All right, all right. I'll start the car! Hey ho!

[douglas9401]

Sic TRANSit Gloria Gaynor  😁

[naomi24]

//North Hertfordshire Museum will now refer to emperor Elagabalus with the female pronouns of she and her.//

 

But not as Empress....

[douglas9401]

Unempressed?

[rowanwitch]

With so many terrible things happening in the world today is this such a bit deal, why is it so bad to be true to who you are, and 99.99% of the time I suspect it hurts no-one.  Maybe it was a reflection of a historical character being seen as having some feminine attributes maybe she was born female but adopted a male persona for reasons we will never know.

  I am sure  that there have always been people born with a brain/bits mismatch and as Clare has said in many cultures, and traditions this was not a problem in fact some cultures identify a number of additional 'genders ' and were never binary.  Maybe it's just history repeating itself

Once you could use racist language and hold those beliefs without censure

The same applied before that with religion, and after it with being gay.  The whole trans issue will be resolved over time for the majority with only a small hard-core  continuing to hold what will become outdated beliefs.   The process is slow but I estimate will happen over a course of around 50 years of so going by by previous examples and the impact of mass media which will speed the process.

[naomi24]

//The whole trans issue will be resolved over time for the majority with only a small hard-core  continuing to hold what will become outdated beliefs. //

 

Truth is swiftly becoming outdated - more's the pity.

[Untitled]

the word "transgender" is a very modern one and i suspect that in future the terminology will change again... but it is very clear that the community of people we currently refer to as "trans" have always existed and their treatment by people around them has always varied... the idea that your biological sex is what matters to the exclusion of all else is simply one of many ideas that human societies have espoused over time and it isn't necessarily the best one

in the case of elagabalus i think the gesture is well intentioned but it does seem reductive to refer to them as a transgender woman... by comparison it seems very obvious that someone like daphne du maurier for example was a transgender man.

[douglas9401]

Were you misgendered by health workers and counsellors?

Did you undergo surgery and drug therapy?

We at Sawyer, Bitsov and Mone will fight for you on a no-win, no-fee basis and get you the compensation you deserve, allowing you to chase the next big thing.

[mushroom25]

I'm not oppressing you, Elagabalus........