Is The Public Expecting Too Much Financially From The State In Benefits And Services?

[dave50]

Is the level of spending on everything from welfare and public services unsustainable? It seems everyone now expects the state to cough up whenever any kind of misfortune comes knocking their their door. 

[ToraToraTora]

10:18 "The problem with that TTT would be how would you calculate that? Two people could get the same full state pension but one could have paid 10 times more NI than the other. Ni is just another tax." - they know exaclty how much NI we have all paid, just give the proportion of that that is for the pension back.

[newmodarmy]

It doesn't work like that TTT. Maybe they could give you the minimum you'd have needed to contribute to get full pension but that could be only a tiny fraction of your N I.

 

[ToraToraTora]

you asked how they'd know how much to give back. They know exactly how much we all paid in by the NI number. I am making no comment on the relationship between the "pension" and what is paid in. That is a well known anomoly. that is not the point here.

[newmodarmy]

But Ni just goes into the tax pot.

Yif you're a big earner you're never going to get all or most if your NI back in return for forgoing your state pension.  The idea is unworkable. 

[ToraToraTora]

"But Ni just goes into the tax pot." - yes but they know how much you put in. This is just about how they know how much you put in, they do know.

[ToraToraTora]

15:45 yes it's inworkable, I agree and it's not my idea. I was just addressing the issue of how they know how much it would be. They do.

[newmodarmy]

Of course they know how much NI you put in. We can see our full record and so can they. So what?

[ToraToraTora]

15:51 above you said: "The problem with that TTT would be how would you calculate that?" - I was merely stating that they know how much we put in, that's all.

[newmodarmy]

You can get a full state  pension via NI  credits  even if you've paid no NI because you've been on out of work benefits or claiming child benefit. Or you can pay £250000 in NI and  still get the full pension. The link between N I paid and pension is so tenuous I don't see how you'd work out how much to refund

 

[ToraToraTora]

...the amount you paid in, that's what canary suggested above. I was merely addressing your assertion that it would be difficult to calculate. It would not, we both agree they know how much we paid in.

[tommy39]

go to work for crap wages pay your taxes,only to see them given to people i, do not know,and care even less about,  yeah great idea.i'm retired now,but i would not do it again

[New Judge]

“…a great many pensioners are very well off and claim the state pension because they feel entitled to it,”

They are entitled to it because that was the deal when they began seeing money deducted from their wages in the form of NI contributions. Whether or not they are well off is not a consideration (any more than it is for a commercial pension). They were told they would receive it in exchange for contributions made during their working lives.

“…these numbers will only increase as the proportion of pensioners increae and the proportion of working age adults goes down.”

Which of course is not helped by the fact that almost 10m people of working age are not working and many of them are in receipt of benefits.

“…because it costs too much to maintain”

Then close the scheme to new entrants and stop making compulsory deductions from the pay of those still contributing to it. The receipts of those people get when they reach the appropriate age can be reduced proportionately and they can invest the money no longer appropriated from them in something else of their choice. 

That  is what occupational pension providers had to do when their schemes became unsustainable due to Gordon Brown ending tax relief on their investments. 

It is scarcely the fault of current pensioners that those responsible for administering the State Pension scheme are inept and there is no reason why they should suffer any losses as a result.

“I find it a weird standpoint that somebody could have paid in hundreds of thousands into the system is somehow less deserving than somebody who has paid nothing into the system.”

Indeed, dd. I think it stems from the fact that some people believe that NI contributions (which for many people and their employers are substantial) are simply another form of taxation to be used as the Chancellor thinks fit. They see no link between those contributions and the State pension. The government clearly thinks otherwise because a person’s NI contributions determine (albeit in a curious way) the amount of State Pension they receive. The problems and anomalies begin when people receive “NI credits” when they are either not working at all or earn insufficient money to make contributions. 

What would address that conundrum is if the amount paid in “pensions” to which untitled refers was to be split. Those pensions which have been fully funded by the recipient should be shown separately from those which have not. Then a more accurate figure of “proper” State Pension costs could be provided.

Instead, the figures quoted include the amounts paid to recipients who have contributed little or nothing to the scheme. As I have illustrated previously, it is perfectly possible to earn a full State Pension without contributing a penny.

The original idea of the State Pension was that younger people would make contributions that would provide older people with an income. That is now being turned on its head. Older people now have to work longer whilst younger people remain at home because they are too “anxious” or “depressed” to get a job (though not to such a degree that they cannot toddle down to he pub or bookies). That’s what needs to be changed.

[Untitled]

taxes paid by the working age population are at present being used to hose money at a significant population of millionaires who simply do not need it. meanwhile many people with serious disabilities face the prospect of having their benefits cut. should that "arrangement" be betrayed (which it won't be) i expect the millionaires would be quite cheesed off, but they would ultimately be fine. many of the people being targeted by the government's proposed changes to disability benefit will not be fine. some of them will end up dead.  

no wealthy person who unnecessarily takes the state pension is in a position to criticise anybody else who is on benefits. they represent a far bigger waste of public funds. if you're a millionaire and you're taking the state pension then i don't care what your contributions were. you're fine and you can do without it. 

[ToraToraTora]

untitled, can I ask if you have skin in the game?

Are you getting a state pension? Are you in line for one?

 

[New Judge]

"taxes paid by the working age population are at present being used to hose money at a significant population of millionaires who simply do not need it."

Whether or not they need it is not a consideration. All people who make the required NI contributions are entitled to a State Pension. 

They didn't ask to take part in the scheme; participation is compulsory. As I explained, there is a simple remedy for any government which wants to end the State Pension scheme. All they have to do is to stop sequestrating money from employers and their employees on the basis of an implied promise of repayment at a later date. Then organise some way of repaying the sums paid in do as to compensate for that broken promise.

[Untitled]

i know that whether or not they need it isn't considered. but if somebody is a millionaire then they ought to consider it themselves. many millions of people who qualify for disability benefit do not take it even though it is not means tested. the decision of about 3.5 million wealthy households who are pension age to take the state pemsion absolutely dwarves any losses to the public purse incurred by benefit fraud... we give such households more than we spend on all disability benefits and about half of what we spend on all universal credit claims. 

the full state pension pays considerably more to its contributors than they pay in. a few hundred pounds a year over 35 years gets you £220 a week in perpetuity from the age of 66 until you die if you choose to claim it. 
 

i do not know what the solution to this problem is but it is a problem. it is the single largest waste of public money by a long long way and many of its benefeciaries wish for the government cut spending on support for people who are far more vulnerable and disadvantaged. i wish for such people to shut their traps. 

[ToraToraTora]

untitled: "i know that whether or not they need it isn't considered. but if somebody is a millionaire then they ought to consider it themselves." - just to be generous you mean out of the kindness of their hearts? disregard the fact that they have been forced throughout their working life to pay in? You also seem to be obsessed with the "millionaire" status. Literally millions are millionaires, many of them on paper, through their house usually, many are poor in day to day cash.

"the full state pension pays considerably more to its contributors than they pay in." - in some cases, yes as the judge has pointed out before, it's not a proper pension scheme in the normal way one is operated. Many pay a lot more than they ever get out, me included. It's a percentage, that's how percentages  work.

" do not know what the solution to this problem is but it is a problem." - the judge has outlined the very simple solution in the post above yours

Care to have a go at my question at 21:54, my situation is clear what is yours?

 

[davebro3]

Why is it that the state pension in the UK is less than that enjoyed in similar European countries? Just askin'

[Old_Geezer]

Because the UK government are a bunch of tight fisted Bs who prefer to keep working age folk unemployed on benefits, and allow a limited pension to be returned to older folk while saying it's unaffordable, the population is aging, you have to keep working until you drop in order to pay for the benefits handed out.

[Untitled]

my personal situation isn't really relevant toratoratora