Gibralter

[number8]

What is the Spanish justification for wanting Gibralter back, when they have refused to intergrate Melilla and Ceuta with Morocco? Both Melilla & Ceuta are larger in terms of area and population. Is this just breathtaking hypocrisy or are there valid reasons?

[derbyram]

Just as you said - Breath-taking hypocrisy. It seems to be something along the lines of 'in this day and age how can one civilised European Nation still hold part of the main-land of another European Nation' but in the case of Melilla & Ceuta the Spanish treat them as any other African 'colony'

[dj_ajax]

Yea it seems hypocrisy. I read in the paper the other day about some politician in Spain saying they had the right to keep Gibraltar and i had to laugh. It seems to me that for the past 300 years its one of the Spanish cabinets goals to try and get back Gibraltar from us so they can look good to the people of Spain. During the second world war for an apparent 'neutral' nation they let in German soldiers so they could try and invade Gibraltar from the mainland. Apparently if the Germans had taken Gibraltar then they would have joined the Axis. Spain has also built a chemical plant in the Franco era, that is just across the water, that was supposed to smoke out the people in Gibraltar but clearly this wasn't planned very well as the wind blew inland. Perhaps the spanish haven't got over the Armada incident either...

[bernardo]

It's not just breathtaking hypocrisy; it's breathtaking hypocrisy and utter contempt for democracy, total arrogance, interference, imperialist aggression, and probably about half a dozen other things I can't think of at the moment. If the Spanish Government doesn't learn the meaning of democracy and self-determination, then perhaps we should just invade the whole of Spain and enslave the entire population until they learn to show a bit of respect.

[Sylday]

I think the central point is that Morocco dropped (or at least suspended) its claim on Melilla and Ceuta, when it reached a fairly recent economic agreement with Spain - I suspect that Morocco benefits from some of the EU money which finds its way to the two enclaves. Spain and the UK, on the other hand, have not reached an accommodation on Gibraltar. Another difference is that the Spanish presence in North Africa goes back to the end of the 15th century, and followed a long period when the Moors (ie North Africans) occupied Spain; so the original establishment of the enclaves can be seen as a defensive rather than an agressive measure. Whereas the 18th century occupation of Gibraltar by the British was a fairly clear-cut seizure of one sovereign country's territory by another. As for "breathtaking hypocrisy" etc, show me a country that isn't hypocritical when its own interests are at issue?

[number8]

Fair point slyday, but after 200 years can't they forget it? Gibaltarians voted overwhemingly to remain as they are - surely the Spanish should respect that.

[number8]

Sorry - sylday.

[Sylday]

I'm afraid, Scubaboy, that 200 years is quite a short time when it comes to folk-memory, ethnic enimities, territorial claims etc etc. Certainly, Spain should respect the principle of self-determination with regard to Gibraltar; but that doesn't mean that they have to drop their aspiration to incorporate Gibraltar back into Spain some time in the future - in the same way that the Irish Republic eventually hopes to incorporate Ulster, but again on the basis of self-determination.

[thewillow]

Sylday - 'Northern Ireland' not 'Ulster'. Ulster is one of the four provinces of the island of Ireland. It includes the six counties of Northern Ireland and three other counties which are in the Republic of Ireland - Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan.

[TommyC]

The other point that you've all missed to some extent is that spain uses Gibraltar in exactly the same way that Argentina used the Falklands - and still does, ie. to rally popular support by appealing to nationalism on a sensitive and easily-irritated international issue when things aren't going so well at home for the government of the day. And given the increasingly fragmented and name-calling nature of European relations today, I can't see that particular bit of cynical political manipulation changing in a hurry either.