Conscription

[Kay]

Does anyone agree with me that this should be brought back? If nothing else,it will sort "The men from the boys" and hopefully rid us of all the yobs who mug,injure,joyride etc.The same applies to girls who act like this too.

[FP]

Toffee, I diverted from the question when I mentioned Iraq.  It wasn't really necessary.  However, I personally do not believe it was right to go to war as we did.  Anyway, that's another issue. 

 

I am sure I infuriate lots of people, I certainly infuriate Mr Fakeplastic!  Anyway, that's what this site is for - to give our opinions and it would be sad if we all agreed with each other.

 

Anyway, Toffee.  Let's have an answer from you to Fina's question!

Best Wishes

[Ewood27]

I agree with Philtaz on this.  I'm an ex-Serviceman (short term regular many years ago during the National Service years) and I have seen the difference a spot of discipline has made to many young men.  Today, even more than then, they get no discipline from home at all and no deterrent from the law to stop criminal and anti-social behaviour.  If parents would take their responsibilities seriously and back up school discipline - and be permitted to administer punishment the child will respect - it would alleviate the problem enormously, but I don't think many of today's young parents are capable of changing their ways.  As for those young men who don't need to have their behaviour straightened out, they still benefit from comradeship, physical fitness, broadening experience and learning a trade.

I don't want to broaden this discussion, but I'm in favour of bringing back capital punishment and the birch too.

[smudge]

As I previously said, I agree with National Service but only on a voluntary basis not statutory! It should not be used to do the parents or courts jobs. Discipline should start at home - then school, but unfortunately this doesn't always happen.

 

I am one of 10 children & not once did my parents have the police knocking on the door! We were taught from a very early age to respect other other people & their belongings.

 

Apolo gies in advance if that offends anyone who's children did go out of control, even after a good upbringing, but I'm only expressing what happened in our household.   < /P>

[beale]

I'm confused smudge, how can you have voluntary national service?

 

 

[smudge]

Whoops, I posted that quite early this morning & hadn't quite woken up!

 

I meant I am all for youngsters male/female voluntarily joining up for the Army, RAF or any other organisation which have an interest in keeping 'our' Country & its people safe. After all where would we be now, if it wasn't for all the very brave men & woman who fought for us in WW1 & WW2, etc. I know it was statutory & voluntary then, but without them we may not be here to tell the tale!

 

However, I do think the PM & other politicians were far too hasty in their decision to go to war in Iraq! IMHO this was a rebelious backlash from 9/11 & it has caused far more problems than anticipated!

 

If only we could turn the clocks back - but then 'if only' is a very popular saying these days!

 

 

[Fat Boy]

My Dad was forced to do National Service & he hated it with a passion.  He had very strong views on corporal & capital punishment (he was for it) but he once told me that the worse thing you can do with a thug is give them a weapon to play with for a couple of years whilst teaching them unarmed combat.  He reckoned it didn't teach them respect, just how to be more violent more effectively. 

My girlfriend's great-uncle was also bullied in the army (ending up in hospital on one occasion & a nervous breakdown on another) by the same sorts of people.  At least a couple he knew of personally then went back to 'civvie street' and continued to be thugs spending time in & out of prison.

Perhaps thugs were different in the good-old days?

[FP]

Your Dad seems to have been a very wise man Fat Boy.  I think he is totally right. 

[bernardo]

NO WAY!!!

 

The Armed Forces are supposed to be a professional, efficient fighting force of fit and able people who are trained to do a difficult job in difficult circumstances.  It is not supposed to be a dumping-ground for misfits, yobs, hooligans, thugs, wombats, bandits, muggers or spiky-haired students, many of whom would not be suitable or useful for various medical or psychological reasons.  It is a hoary old myth that forcing somebody to march up and down or make a bed neatly or have short hair will somehow magic them into being a useful and productive law-abiding member of society.  Nor will it create the necessary number of work or training opportunities to fill the market.

 

It is, of course, possible to use some of the methods of training which are used in the armed forces as types of rehabilitation or community service or as a non-custodial punishment, for some offenders in some circumstances.  But the so-called "solution" as proposed by the questionner is no more than a mythical old bit of wishful thinking.

[lizzierose]

i agree with you to an extent bernado. i live with a few army men and some stories i hear seem to promote thuggery and violence. the punishment and discipline that can be used sounds more like torture. from what i gather most of the recruits want to get promoted as quickly as possible so that they can enact their sadistic revenge for what they had to go through on the new recruits. forcing people to join the army to sort them out seems like a terrible idea, although i am not one for being soft on yobs, i often walk past gangs who either give me or others a hard time and idly fantasize about them getting them their comeuppance but i don't think its the way.

also whats this in the original question about sorting the men from the boys. both my brothers, though fairly fit and far from weaklings are not what might be counted as "men" in this traditional sense. i.e. they don't like beating each other senseless and don't really agree with guns. they are both academically brilliant and their studies were lengthy but have ended in productive jobs. one of my brothers at age 28 would still not have a job if his studies had been interrupted by a conscription.

a shake up of social care and education might possibly do a little to help. stop forcing those who have absolutely no interest in learning french or maths to stay until they are sixteen and do umpteen GCSE's which have little or no bearing on their lives and probably aren't the most important or stressful things they have to deal with. and the longer they sit frustrated in the class room the more likely they're going to go out and cause havoc

I've heard the government is thinking of scrapping GCSE's and Alevels and i hope he has some good ideas. sorry that turned into a bit of a rant but i don't think you can have quick fix measures by throwing yobs into the military machine and hoping they come out suitably cowed and useful members of society (however much we may all want to)

[FP]

Good answer Lizzierose.

 

  I read a really good article on schooling and why there are so many yobs about nowadays.  It maintained that years ago when the school leaving age was 14, this coincided with the testosterone increase in lads with its associated behaviour, i.e. more strength and more aggressivenss, apart from the sexual side of things.  Therefore when they started work at 14 most of this energy was going into hard work to earn a living and learn a trade.  Nowadays, they are forced to stay on at school and are very sedentary.  Their aggressiveness is not channelled, hene the yobbish behaviour.  I have worked in secondary education and feel really sorry for the lads that don't want to be there at 15 and 16 and as a result just cause trouble.

 

To a degree I think this is very true.  Perhaps if we encouraged apprenticeships from age 14 and let kids with no interest in higher education leave at that age, they would learn adult ways quicker and be more responsible.

 

I am fed up with the Government striving for more youngsters to go into higher education - as far as I'm conerned it's just another ploy to rearrange the employment statistics.

 

 

[FP]

error:  hence not hene