Consumer Question (Pt 2)

[lizzydrippin]

The agreement says that he paid �1,200 in advance in cash, then around �2,500 in monthly payments on finance. Im am so mad that he has been ripped off like this. It says on the agreement that he has had a 'pre-contract' to read through for a time to decide whether he wants to go ahead or not. He certainly didn't get any time to read anything. They delivered the very next day. He has signed the agreement but he had no idea of what he was signing. When I asked him this evening about the �1200 cash he'd handed over he didnt even know how much he'd given the fellow, he just kept counting out the notes till the man told him to stop. Knowing Jack as I do now I know that just what he would do. Its awful that some git could take advantage of him being old and trusting.
I have looked on the net for this company that sold him the bed (who are called Cr@ftm@tic) and it seems they have been sued many times in the States for preying on the elderly. Please please don't tell me that he just has to pay the rest of the money, say goodbye to the money that's been paid already and forget it. Its making my blood boil! (to top it all he doesn't even sleep in the bed but snoozes in his armchair). Any advice for me?
Lastly, Jack has nothing, just a few hundred pounds in savings, no property. Fought in the war for this country too! Thanks.

[meglet]

Poor Jack. I'm sure the legal eagles on here will be able to advise you. But I just did a quick check on e-bay here

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/King-Size-Craftmatic-Ele ctric-Bed_W0QQitemZ160208912331QQihZ006QQcateg oryZ131586QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewIte m

and if you scroll down this advert does say that the beds cost over �4000 new. If he doesn't use it do you think you may be able to help him sell it and recoup some of the money he has paid out?

[tufty7]

Call them out , tell them its creaky and faulty , hopefully they will not come and he can then default on the payments due to the fact they are unwilling to repair it under guarantee.... its worth a try......I can understand why you are mad , salesmen like that are like vultures taking money off old confused people who were brought up to believe what others were saying to them and giving false hope when people have to accept they are not as fit and flexible as they were and the latest craze perhaps won't work for them ....

[Buenchico]

Craftmatic's bed salesmen were reported on in the BBC Rogue Trader's programme. (If I remember the item correctly, the beds don't actually have a fixed price. It's left up to the salesman to get as much as possible and thereby increase their own profit). Their sister programme, Watchdog, might be interested in hearing about Jack's problems:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/consumer/tv_and_radio/wat chdog/contact_index.shtml

Your local Trading Standards office or CAB might be able to advise you. Use these links to find your nearest offices:

http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/search/dbas e/searchlocal.cfm

http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index/getadvi ce.htm#txt_getadvice_header-Anchor-search

Chris

[lizzydrippin]

Thank you so very much for your answers and thanks a million Chris for the info you have sent me, I feel like I just might be able to do something about the whole thing now. I know Jack will never get the money he has already parted with back but even if I can get a stop put on the rest of the money he owes, would be something. Ive just had another look at the finance agreement from Glydesdales Finances and the total sum owed isn't �4,000 at all but �5,122-20. So Jack paid the salesman every penny of cash that he had which were his savings of �1,200 on the day the man came, plus �1,600 in monthly payments over the last 2+yrs which comes to �2,800 leaving a balance of �2,322 left for him to pay. Its absolutely shocking and I don't know how these salesmen sleep at night.

[Stu Dent]

I'm not sure there is much Jack can do to recoup his losses without suffering a great deal of stress. His best bet may be to stop making any future payments. If he chooses to do this then he will be in breach of contract (non performance) and the finance company could sue him. The threat of any bad publicity could deter them from taking such action though.

Jack could also raise an action for reduction - to reduce/set aside/annul the contract on the grounds that he did not have the capacity to enter into the contract and that the benefits of the bed were misrepresented. But that won't get Jack back what he has paid already without a further action for Crapmatic being unjustly enriched. But by doing so he actually could get his money back.

CAB (or a local law centre) will be able to help you.

[lizzydrippin]

Thanks Stu-Dent for your advice, I have thought about the stress that Jack would go through with regards to all the hassle involved with courts etc, he's really upset already when I pointed out to him that he hasn't got just 3 more monthly payments of �65-37 to make before the bed is all paid for (simply because he only has 3 more 'pay in' slips left in the present 'paying in' book, he was oblivious to how much it really was going to cost until I found the contract for the finance and pointed it out to him). I was wondering if I could take care of it on his behalf (especially as he is housebound and really wouldnt have a clue where to start anyway). I will certainly seek advice from the C.A.B to see what can be done. I spoke to Glydesdale Finances today about it and they told me that I am making a very serious allegation about Crapmatic and that I should put it in writing to them (Glydesdale/Barclays). (They're the finance company that are doing the credit, who Jack makes the monthly payments to). Does that mean that Crapmatic have already been paid their �5,122-20 by the finance company? Sorry if Im abit green but Ive never had any dealings with finance or credit ect and Im not sure how it all works.

[Stu Dent]

Well there might be another solution - if Jack is in England or Wales.

Since the bed was represented to Jack that it would do wonders for his arthritis, this could amount to being a misrepresentation. If Jack has a claim under the Misrepresentation Act 1967, then he also has a claim under section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

If after an attempt to mediate fails, Jack could raise a small claims action at his local county court against Crapmatic, or Glydesdale, or both - both are jointly and severally liable for the misrepresentation.

Jack's biggest problem is being able to prove the salesman's claim. That said, the action would be inexpensive to raise and the outcome would be decided on the balance of probability.

The OFT have published an excellent guide:
http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/consu mer_credit/oft303.pdf

Small claims advice:
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/c laims/index.htm

[lizzydrippin]

Thanks very much Stu-Dent, Jack isn't actually up to seeing solicitors or going to small claim courts etc as apart from being housebound (he can hardly walk) he really wouldn't be able to fill in forms or understand an awful lot of what was going on. I need to find out what I have to do (if anything) to represent Jack on this matter. I am goint to see Citizens Advice about it and hopefully they'll put me straight. I will let all you kind people that have advised me so far, know what the result of all this is when it's sorted. Thanks again,

[Stu Dent]

I kind of guessed that Jack would'nt be fit enough to cope with the hassle of it all. But it should be permissible for someone to represent him. I did this for my 16 year old nephew some time ago when his employer failed to pay him wages.

I'll be working for the next few days but I'll get back to you on this. If you want some guidance on how to go about all this, providing you are allowed to represent Jack (and you probably would be), I'll be happy to give you as much help as I can.

What you might also want to do is contact a local law centre or your local university who may also have a law centre. They may take on this company. In fact, their very involvement may bring success without going anywhere near a court! It's not much use in Scotland because we can only claim upto �750, but in England I believe as much as �5000 can be pursued in the one action.

If you let me know roughly where Jack stays (Cardiff, Manchester, London, etc) I'll do some checking for you.

[lizzydrippin]

Thanks alot Stu, Jack lives in Bradford, West Yorkshire. He has no relatives whatsoever but he made me his next of kin when he developed heart problems a few years back and had to name someone as next of kin to the doctors. Im all his got. I'll find out if there is a law university in Bradford. Cheers for your help, you're a diamond!

[Stu Dent]

Hi Lizzy. Hope Jack and yourself are well.

There is a law centre in Bradford (Manor Road, BD1 4PS) - so I guess that BD1 will be in the city centre.

http://www.bradfordlawcentre.co.uk/ Phone and email details are on the front page of the site. These people will be able to help and I'm almost certain it will be free of charge.

Let me know how things go.

[lizzydrippin]

Hi Stu, I got in touch with the Bradford Law Centre but they specialise in immigration, asylum, employment laws and racial discrimination matters only, so they couldn't help. I'll try the Citizens Advice again, I did send them one e mail but didnt get a reply. I'll also send something off to the Trading Standards. The next monthly payment is due soon, I take it its a good idea to keep up the payments at the moment is it? Cheers Toni

[Stu Dent]

Hi Toni, I'm sorry the law centre can't help. But in fairness to them, there are alternative places (like CAB & TS) that allow access to justice on consumer law as opposed to asylum & immigration. Sort of depends on where you are. Glasgow law centres focus on these issues too, but also have a heavy caseload of money & debt advice, and housing issues. They try to fill the gaps in legal services!

So yes, I agree that it would be best if you contact your local cab and/or trading standards again (perhaps in person?) and see if one of them could take up Jack's case for him.

The legal grounds for the challenge is that Crapmatic misrepresented the features and benefits of the bed. That misrepresentation amounts to a breach of contract and under S.75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1975 Jack can sue Crapmatic and/or Glydsdale - the choice is his as they are jointly and severally liable.

I'm pretty sure the maximum amount that can be claimed in a small claims action is �5k, so that will get Jack most of his losses back if his claim is successful plus the action would be inexpensive to raise whether he succeeds or fails. He could perhaps raise a second action for any remaining losses as many appear to have done this to recoup 'unfair' charges from their banks - especially in Scotland where the max amount in a small claims action is limited to �750.

Should Jack continue to pay? Very good question!!

I've put a lot of thought into this......and I'm not entirely sure.

[Stu Dent]

On balance...probably yes, Jack, at least for now, should continue to pay. If he was a young man and healthy he would be in a better position to deal with the stress of the threatening letters and demands that no doubt he would receive from his creditor. But our Jack may struggle to cope with this, and the prospect of possibly being 'blacklisted'. Today's consumerist generation are not fazed by debt, but Jack's generation were raised to save and then buy. The idea of being pursued for debt and being blacklisted could be a far more scary and demeaning prospect for Jack than it might be for a much younger man.

So for now at least, it may be best for Jack to continue to pay and keep himself on the moral highground and on the front foot - I honestly believe it's easier to attack on debt/consumer matters than it is to defend. Or to be the hound rather than the fox if you like.

If Jack wins his first action for the �5k he can then stop paying and sue for the remaining amount he is owed in a subsequent action. My guess is that, in those circumstances, the defender would not contest the action.

Good luck!! Let me know how things go - I can check threads I've been involved with. It will take some time for progress to be made.

Pass on my best wishes to Jack!!

[lizzydrippin]

Thanks Stu, you really have been a great help. As things stand at the moment, I have put a pause to taking any action of any sort as Jack is quite ill at present. He has actually had another heart attack at the weekend (a fairly mild one) and has a bad chest infection which he desperately needs to go into hospital to have his chest drained of fluid. The doctor has been twice but Jack flatly refuses to go into hospital for the much needed treatment. This same thing happened once before and he was taken to hospital by ambulance but discharged himself within 24 hrs. He has this notion in his head that his last wife went into hospital perfectly healthy and died a week later. Obviously, she couldn't have been perfectly healthy, but Jack won't have it any other way and the doctors have more or less said that if he refuses treatment there is nothing they can do for him . So Im round the clock nurse maid at present. Obviously, Im hoping that Jack will become so ill that he'll stop fighting to not go into hospital and will then get treated and go on to live some more years, but if it doesn't go that way and the worst happens. Will I as his allocated 'next of kin' be liable for the debt he leaves. If so then obviously I'll fight it. Or will the debt cease to be?

[Stu Dent]

Hi Toni. Sorry to hear that Jack is unwell.

You would not be held personally liable for Jack's debts. If the worst happens then any debts owed by Jack would be paid out of his estate. If there is not enough in his estate to meet those debts then his creditors will lose out. But you can't be pursued personally.

If Jack's estate is worth �10,000 and he owes �4000, then that �4000 is paid to his creditors before his beneficiaries can share the remaining �6000.

All the best!