Keyplus, a question.

[naomi24]

Something I find confusing and upon which I have been deliberating. On the 'Proving the existence of God' thread, you said of Allah, aka 'God':

He begetteth not nor is He begotten

..... and on the 'Is there any point debating religion, really?' thread, speaking of Jesus, you said

I believe in his Miraculous Birth without any human intervention.

If God, or Allah, begetteth not, how do you explain the 'miraculous' birth of Jesus?

[Ice.Maiden]

Good point naomi. I believe that both Mohammed and Jesus were born in the normal way, but were prophets.

[naomi24]

Hello Ice Maiden, Yes, the response could be interesting - that's if we get one.

[maxximus]

http://www.muhammadanism.org/Quran/al-Ikhlas11 2.htm

[naomi24]

Thank you maxximus.

[keyplus90]

Allah creates What he likes, how he likes, Why are you worried about "miraculous birth" of Jesus. Allah Created Adam when there was none.

So what is so shocking about if God created Jesus the way we believe he did.

[naomi24]

Keyplus Not shocking, but a little surprising since you tell us 'He begetteth not'. How do you believe he did it then?

I'm not worried about it Keyplus, but if you make statements you really ought to be prepared to clarify them for those who don't understand what you mean.

[keyplus90]

Begotten Means "Sired"!

In my forty years of practical experience in talking to learned Christians, not a single one has opened his mouth to hazard an explanation of the phrase "begotten not made". It had to be an American who dared to explain. He said : "It means, sired by God." "What!?" I exploded : "Sired by God?" "No, no!" he said, "I am only trying to explain the meaning, I do not believe that God really sired a son."

The sensible Christian says that the words do not literally mean what they say. Then why do you say it? Why are you creating unnecessary conflict between the 1,200,000,000 Christians and a thousand million Muslims of the world in making senseless statements?

Reason for Objection

The Muslim takes exception to the word "begotten", because begetting is an animal act, belonging to the lower animal functions of sex. How can we attribute such a lowly capacity to God? Metaphorically we are all the children of God, the good and the bad, and Jesus would be closer to being the son of God than any one of us, because he would be more faithful to God then any one of us can ever be. From that point of view he is preeminently the son of God.

Although this pernicious word "begotten" has now unceremoniously been thrown out of the "Most Accurate" version of the Bible, the Revised Standard Version (R.S.V.), its ghost still lingers on in the Christian mind, both black and white. Through its insidious brainwashing the white man is made to feel superior to his black Christian brother of the same Church and Denomination. And in turn, the black man is given a permanent inferiority complex through this dogma.

[keyplus90]

cont - Brain-washed Inferiority

The human mind can't help reasoning that since the "begotten son" of an African will look like an African, and that of a Chinaman as a Chinese, and that of an Indian like an Indian: so the begotten son of God aught naturally to look like God. Billions of beautiful pictures and replicas of this "only begotten son of God" are put in peoples hands. He looks like a European with blonde hair, blue eyes and handsome features like e one I saw in the "King of Kings" or "The Day of Triumph" or "Jesus of Nazareth". Remember Jeffrey Hunter? The "Savior" of the Christian is more like a German than a Jew with his polly nose. So naturally, if the son is a white man, the father would also be a white man (God?). Hence the darker skinned races of the earth subconsciously have the feeling of inferiory ingrained in their souls as God's "step children". No amount of face creams, skin lighteners and hair straighteners will erase the inferiority.

God is neither black nor white. He is beyond the imagination of the mind of man. Break the mental shackles of a Caucasian (white) man-god, and you have broken the shackles of a permanent inferiority. But intellectual bondages are harder to shatter: the slave himself fights to retain them.

[Doc Spock]

All very interesting but I believe god must be white.


When adam asked him the same question , god said , you are what you are my son.



If god was black he would have said, you is what you is.

[keyplus90]

Naomi - Those were few things to explain. if you need more clarification then visit this. But do read it all before rejecting it. You may not get better explanation than this abiut Jesus (pbuh).

http://www.jamaat.net/cis/ChristInIslam.html

[naomi24]

Well, I'm not sure all that was relevant to the question, but I take it you're now saying his birth wasn't miraculous then? He was simply a holier man than anyone else?

[naomi24]

Spock, that's funny. :o)

[keyplus90]

The website Maximus has given, they are trying to re-phrase things. According to them at least. First of all that is not Islamic Website. Secondly what they are talking about is half told truth. Arabic language does not work like English or perhaps any other language. For Example, In Arabic they say "There is no God" now if you just stop there then you have not understood it properly. Because it goes on to say "But only Allah or Except Allah". But you will not understand.

[naomi24]

Keyplus That long post you gave wasn't your own answer. You hooked it from that website. I thought you'd typed that quickly! Still doesn't explain this miraculous birth though, does it? At least the Christians explain it somehow, and make some sort of sense of it for themselves. It seems the Muslims say 'it was miraculous - just believe it and don't question it'.

So there are no words in Arabic meaning 'There is no God'?

[keyplus90]

If you still did not understand, then in very simple English it means, That he has not been given birth and he does not give anyone birth. That means he himself is Eternal and He creates does not give birth.

Clear or Shall I try to make it more easy to Digest.

[naomi24]

I understand that completely, but what I'm asking is what was miraculous about Jesus' birth?

[keyplus90]

Miraculus was that Marry (pbuh) gave him birth without being involved in sexual activity with a mortal. What else.

Is that difficult to understand. However if you want more information about what Islam says about Jesus (pbuh) then I can give you whole lot of information. But does it matter if I get it from a website. Why do you emphasize on that it has to be from me. One of the companions of Muhammed (pbuh) once said a very good thing in one sentence. He said "It is not important that that who is saying, but what is saying". I am sure all of you here jump here and there on google and other websites, so why can't I do that if it gives someone more in depth answer.

[naomi24]

It's not something that I would waste time trying to understand - it's a physical impossibility. Oh, I know - according to you, nothing's impossible for your God. No need to explain that.

Yes, we do all use websites, but normally as 'part' of our answer - not all of it. Not to worry.

[Ethmer]

�
Jesus was conceived naturally but wasn't fathered by Joseph.

Joseph had been married before he married Mary and had a couple of childrfen which were Jesus' half-siblings.

Mary had a couple more children after Jesus.

All the above information was gleaned from a TV program a few nights ago which gave the history of the life and times of Jesus.
�

[naomi24]

Thanks Ethmer. Do you think Jesus was fathered by God then?