Road rules4 mins ago
ouji boards...
32 Answers
has anyone ever used one? why do some people say that they have summoned an evil spirit? and how does it work exactly? sorry if this seems to be in the wrong section but i didnt know where else to put my question!
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No, I'm not confusing 'credulous, unthinking acceptance' with an open mind at all. On the contrary, I think you are confused. Just because no-one has been able to present you with a logical hypothesis that you feel able to accept, you dismiss the whole thing. Instead, could this not just be a demonstration of the inability of science to explain the (as yet) unexplainable. This inability does not prove it doesn't exist. It just proves we don't yet have the intelligence/ knowledge/ means to prove it the satisfaction of sceptics like yourself. Perhaps it's just beyond what we can comprehend at this time. Because it is intangible and immeasurable doesn't mean it isn't there. Surely you can't expect to measure something so intangible? Just out of interest, how do you explain nox's experience with this medium? Are you saying he's lying? Or is he delusional?
As much as you say there is no proof it exists, there is also no proof to the contrary.
As much as you say there is no proof it exists, there is also no proof to the contrary.
No chicklin, I am not confused.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
You cannot simply place spiritualism / mediumship outside the remit of scientific enquiry and then expect rational people to buy into it without any evidence.
What you appear to have is faith in spirtuality (belief in the absence of evidence).If you are prepared to accept such stuff in the absence of any credible objective evidence then I would suggest that demonstrates credulous uncritical acceptance.
In the absence of any credible hypothesis as to how it would work, of course the correct frame of mind should be sceptical. For it to work in any way, shape or form means buying into invisible, immeasurable communication with souls (which again have no credible hypothesis or measurable parameters).
I did point out that if such a hypothesis could be put forward, and some evidence put forward in support of it, then I would give it some credence... until then, I will remain sceptical.
I would incidentally, expect science to be able to measure everything, eventually. If we all just accepted stuff as being intangible, immeasurable, then what is the point of science? We may as well go back to the dark ages.
As for Noxs experience... I wouldn't presume to comment... I wasn' t there to observe, and as Nox points out himself, Argument from personal experience is never objective, rational proof of anything.
Once again, I ask you this..... if this immeasurable, intangible force/spirit/soul/whatever was there, how come over the years that not one single pyschic / medium / spiritualist has been able to objectively prove their ability in a controlled, observed environment? Why does their ability desert them in such circumstances?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
You cannot simply place spiritualism / mediumship outside the remit of scientific enquiry and then expect rational people to buy into it without any evidence.
What you appear to have is faith in spirtuality (belief in the absence of evidence).If you are prepared to accept such stuff in the absence of any credible objective evidence then I would suggest that demonstrates credulous uncritical acceptance.
In the absence of any credible hypothesis as to how it would work, of course the correct frame of mind should be sceptical. For it to work in any way, shape or form means buying into invisible, immeasurable communication with souls (which again have no credible hypothesis or measurable parameters).
I did point out that if such a hypothesis could be put forward, and some evidence put forward in support of it, then I would give it some credence... until then, I will remain sceptical.
I would incidentally, expect science to be able to measure everything, eventually. If we all just accepted stuff as being intangible, immeasurable, then what is the point of science? We may as well go back to the dark ages.
As for Noxs experience... I wouldn't presume to comment... I wasn' t there to observe, and as Nox points out himself, Argument from personal experience is never objective, rational proof of anything.
Once again, I ask you this..... if this immeasurable, intangible force/spirit/soul/whatever was there, how come over the years that not one single pyschic / medium / spiritualist has been able to objectively prove their ability in a controlled, observed environment? Why does their ability desert them in such circumstances?
(sorry I've hijacked your thread Katieface, hope you don't mind) LazyGun, I don't think I'm expecting rational people to buy into it without any evidence. What I'm trying to say is turn that idea around and look at it from the other point of view. You're prepared to accept that there isn't anything in this whole idea of spiritualism simply because no-one has brought you a real dead ghost and got it to speak to you personally. So you say they don't exist. Why can't you say there might be something in it because up to now no-one has proved beyond doubt that there Isn't. If you can accept one argument, surely you can see the validity of the opposite argument?
I agree that it's very likely that science will be able to measure everything eventually but until then don't dismiss it because you don't understand it.
It doesn't demonstrate credulous uncritical acceptance it merely means I'm open to the the possibility.
I've also had had similar experience to nox, which couldn't be explained away either. As in his case, there was no way this information could have got to the person who told me. So in the light of this - I have to consider the possibility of a supernatural explanation.
You are trying to measure something which is transient and ethereal with science, which is anything but. Perhaps this is why the scientists have had no success?
Anyway, thanks for your comments, but I'm off to bed now. I'll continue this tomorrow if you've left another post.
I agree that it's very likely that science will be able to measure everything eventually but until then don't dismiss it because you don't understand it.
It doesn't demonstrate credulous uncritical acceptance it merely means I'm open to the the possibility.
I've also had had similar experience to nox, which couldn't be explained away either. As in his case, there was no way this information could have got to the person who told me. So in the light of this - I have to consider the possibility of a supernatural explanation.
You are trying to measure something which is transient and ethereal with science, which is anything but. Perhaps this is why the scientists have had no success?
Anyway, thanks for your comments, but I'm off to bed now. I'll continue this tomorrow if you've left another post.
Chicklin, if you are arguing from a similar position to Nox, then fair enough for you.... but that makes your position an argument from personal experience, which is always weak if you want to convince a wider audience... For that, you need objective, credible, verifiable evidence.
All too often I hear the argument that being sceptical, or adopting an objective frame of mind with respect to the spiritual is evidence of being "close minded", but nothing could be further from the truth.
For spiritualism to work at all, you need a credible hypothesis. For spiritualism to work, it would mean that ;
a. People have an immortal soul or something similar, and that it goes "somewhere" after corporeal death, but remains as an entity capable of interacting with our world.
b. We can "communicate" with such entities by means of inanimate objects (ouija boards and the like), or via a medium... a human "sensitive" who somehow can hear said entities.
c. They cannot communicate clearly, but only by inference or veiled comment that requires interpretation.
d. The above process cannot be shown to work when observed by impartial researchers, or by using an stranger selected at random by researchers to present to the pyschic.
Now ,add to this mix the number of occasions where mediums have been conclusively shown to be charlatans, frauds or even entertainers, such as Derren Brown, who by use of body reading, suggestion, and plain old fashioned research on their audience, are able to plausibly "demonstrate" pyschic abilities.
All of the above violates so many fundamental principles of our understanding of physics, cosmology, chemistry and biology ( and even some branches of theology, come to that ) that it must be extremely unlikely...and despite what you say about science knowing nothing, that knowledge about the fundamentals of the universe is pretty strong.
-ctd
All too often I hear the argument that being sceptical, or adopting an objective frame of mind with respect to the spiritual is evidence of being "close minded", but nothing could be further from the truth.
For spiritualism to work at all, you need a credible hypothesis. For spiritualism to work, it would mean that ;
a. People have an immortal soul or something similar, and that it goes "somewhere" after corporeal death, but remains as an entity capable of interacting with our world.
b. We can "communicate" with such entities by means of inanimate objects (ouija boards and the like), or via a medium... a human "sensitive" who somehow can hear said entities.
c. They cannot communicate clearly, but only by inference or veiled comment that requires interpretation.
d. The above process cannot be shown to work when observed by impartial researchers, or by using an stranger selected at random by researchers to present to the pyschic.
Now ,add to this mix the number of occasions where mediums have been conclusively shown to be charlatans, frauds or even entertainers, such as Derren Brown, who by use of body reading, suggestion, and plain old fashioned research on their audience, are able to plausibly "demonstrate" pyschic abilities.
All of the above violates so many fundamental principles of our understanding of physics, cosmology, chemistry and biology ( and even some branches of theology, come to that ) that it must be extremely unlikely...and despite what you say about science knowing nothing, that knowledge about the fundamentals of the universe is pretty strong.
-ctd
-ctd
To convince me otherwise, I don't actually need personal experience of such a thing... what I want is some logical or credible hypothesis to at least begin to explain such phenomena. I want to have some objective, scientifically controlled, peer reviewed evidence that the phenomena actually ,in fact, exists... Then I would be prepared to admit there might be something in it.
I would ask you again... Why is it that despite all the years of claims of individuals that have pyschic abilities, not a single, solitary case has been objectively observed? Why is it that the pyschic in your case,as an example, could not provide a similar reading for a complete stranger when objectively observed?
To believe in any of this means believing in the absence of objective evidence, or having faith... and I have none when it comes to the supernatural, or the pyschic, the clairvoyant, or the religious.
Extraordinary claims require Extraordinary proof... all it would take would be for one,just one of the many thousands of "pyschics" , "mediums" or "clairvoyants" around the globe to successfully take the Randi test ( for which there is a 1 million dollar prize), and that would be enough for me to at least consider that it might have some validity... but that offer has been on offer for 20 odd years now without ever being claimed.
I am all for people having an open, enquiring mind... but that actually means challenging preconceptions, seeking evidence in support of claims.... not simply accepting stuff on faith, or because something you cannot explain happened to you, or someone you know.
To convince me otherwise, I don't actually need personal experience of such a thing... what I want is some logical or credible hypothesis to at least begin to explain such phenomena. I want to have some objective, scientifically controlled, peer reviewed evidence that the phenomena actually ,in fact, exists... Then I would be prepared to admit there might be something in it.
I would ask you again... Why is it that despite all the years of claims of individuals that have pyschic abilities, not a single, solitary case has been objectively observed? Why is it that the pyschic in your case,as an example, could not provide a similar reading for a complete stranger when objectively observed?
To believe in any of this means believing in the absence of objective evidence, or having faith... and I have none when it comes to the supernatural, or the pyschic, the clairvoyant, or the religious.
Extraordinary claims require Extraordinary proof... all it would take would be for one,just one of the many thousands of "pyschics" , "mediums" or "clairvoyants" around the globe to successfully take the Randi test ( for which there is a 1 million dollar prize), and that would be enough for me to at least consider that it might have some validity... but that offer has been on offer for 20 odd years now without ever being claimed.
I am all for people having an open, enquiring mind... but that actually means challenging preconceptions, seeking evidence in support of claims.... not simply accepting stuff on faith, or because something you cannot explain happened to you, or someone you know.
So anyway, about these ouija boards... I used one once when I was about 15 with a group of friends.
Now I am one of the most cynical/sceptical people I know, but I was then and remain 100% convinced that something 'paranormal' happened on that occasion.
Things were spelled out that were beyond the knowledge of the people involved at that time. You just have to trust me that I knew my friends well enough to know this and to know that no-one was p*ssing about.
I don't know what caused the phenomenon, but I believe it to be a real phenomenon.
Now I am one of the most cynical/sceptical people I know, but I was then and remain 100% convinced that something 'paranormal' happened on that occasion.
Things were spelled out that were beyond the knowledge of the people involved at that time. You just have to trust me that I knew my friends well enough to know this and to know that no-one was p*ssing about.
I don't know what caused the phenomenon, but I believe it to be a real phenomenon.
Right I'm back, and now I'm more awake I've come to the conclusion that you (lazy) and I will never see eye to eye and actually agree but I can see what you are getting at.
I agree that there are a lot of unscrupulous people out there who prey on susceptible people, but I am not one to just accept something, without question (as you may have guessed!) However, I can't think of any other explanation of the things I was told. WHERE did that information come from?
You put up a good argument anyway.
Now to answer the original question - ouija boards. I never got involved in them because I don't like dabbling in things I don't understand and they scare me....and I can be a right chicken!!
I agree that there are a lot of unscrupulous people out there who prey on susceptible people, but I am not one to just accept something, without question (as you may have guessed!) However, I can't think of any other explanation of the things I was told. WHERE did that information come from?
You put up a good argument anyway.
Now to answer the original question - ouija boards. I never got involved in them because I don't like dabbling in things I don't understand and they scare me....and I can be a right chicken!!
I do not wish to preach, so if this sounds like it comes from the pulpit I apologise.
The more I know, the more I know I know nothing.
I don't know who originally said that. However, I believe nothing as well. The more people cannot prove their theories, the more I understand that I know nothing.
Ouji boards were created by the Victorians to satisfy their thirst for the macabre.
Mediums have had their fair share of fakes. Although, I will never condem something I do not truly understand.
To all the sceptics, of which I am one, how much of your brain do you use when you are alive?
Where does the kinetic energy of a human being go when they die?
I am not saying that anyone can contact the dead, I am merely proposing that we do not know.
We thought the world was flat until proved otherwise and even then there were many scientists whom refused to believe.
The more I know, the more I know I know nothing.
I don't know who originally said that. However, I believe nothing as well. The more people cannot prove their theories, the more I understand that I know nothing.
Ouji boards were created by the Victorians to satisfy their thirst for the macabre.
Mediums have had their fair share of fakes. Although, I will never condem something I do not truly understand.
To all the sceptics, of which I am one, how much of your brain do you use when you are alive?
Where does the kinetic energy of a human being go when they die?
I am not saying that anyone can contact the dead, I am merely proposing that we do not know.
We thought the world was flat until proved otherwise and even then there were many scientists whom refused to believe.
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