Are National ID Cards really necessary?

[Saint Nick]

THE UK Government has embarked on its most reckless policy to date in pursuing the idea of national identity cards. The initiative will fundamentally change the nature of government and the character of the nation. This is inevitable because the modern ID card is no simple piece of plastic. It is the visible component of a web of interactive technology that fuses the most intimate characteristics of the individual with the machinery of state.

If an ID card was unworkable five years ago, why would it work now? The short answer is that it would not - unless the biometric were added and the whole system verified through a national database. That is not a card: it is a national surveillance infrastructure.  If such a scheme is introduced in the current climate, three outcomes are inevitable. First, a high-security card will become an internal passport, demanded in limitless situations. (Don't leave home without it.)
 
Second, millions of people will be severely inconvenienced each year through lost, stolen or damaged cards, or through failure of computer systems or the biometric reading machinery.

Finally, the cards will inevitably be abused by officials who will use them as a mechanism for prejudice, discrimination or harassment.

No one has been able to identify any country where cards have deterred terrorists. To achieve this, a government would require measures unthinkable in a free society.  The Government thus faces a choice. Either it introduces a high-security biometric card that will challenge every tenet of freedom, or it introduces a low-security card that will soon be available to criminals and terrorists on the black market.  Or, of course, it can scrap the whole idea and concentrate on more proven measures to deal with terrorism.

Saint Nick

[robbieh]

I have no personal reason for not having one, would loved to have had one when i was 18 though, prevent all thse turnings away at pubs/clubs - oh how times change:-p

 

[Greedyfly]

I do not possess anything ID wise so for me Im happy to have one.

[mullein]

i think we should have id cards,,as it will help the police and the immigration department..also these high tech id cards should be produced when going for medical treatment,,,just to make sure they are entitled to it..okay it will take away our personal freedom to some extent but if people have nothing to hide then they have no fear of id cards..with all these illegal immegrants coming in an id card is going to have to be neccesary..the whole situation needs monitoring and its getting to the state now when you dont know if you have a terrorist next door to you...also it would be some form of control for sex abbusers...they would have all their personal details in a chip and if they were stopped then their whereabouts would be registered...okay people will loose their cards but they will have to learn to be carefull with them..mullein

[El D]

Agree totally - the govt is using the fear of terrorism to push through measures which would simply not be accepted otherwise, and yet as you point out their actual deterrence and use is very limited. It ***** me off big time because its an incredible invasion of privacy.

[FP]

I totally agree with  you Saint Nick.  I cannot see that they will be any use in dealing with terrorism.  Can't say any more, you have clearly and succinctly said it all.

[Oneeyedvic]

Very boringly also totally agree with you St Nick. Would also like to add that Spain (who also have ID cards) did not deter terrorists.

 

It is also a scary concept that a governement may have your genetic information. Do you really trust them that much. And also what about the governement in 10 years time? We are talking about a governement who are prepared to change national laws to get their own way domestically and ignore international law when inconvenient.

If it does not contain biometric/genetic information, then it is as useful as a driving licence (and just as easy to copy).

 

Greedyfly, there are plenty of ID documents that are easy to get hold of if you so wish - a driving licence (provisional if needs be) or passport are obviously the most common.

 

Mullein - sad that you belive the governement spin on this!

[Pinotage]

You are correct, Saint Nick.

 

ID cards do not inconvenience crooks or terrorists, only normal law abiding citizens who will need to show the thing for every transaction. We will have to pay for our card, plus through our taxes for the infrastructure to support it.

 

So just what is their point? To give government more control.

 

The the people who say 'if you've done nothing wrong you've nothing to fear', history shows otheriwse. French ID cards routinely had the holders religion. So when the Nazi's occupied France in the 40's it was no problem for them to round up every who was Jewish. They'd done nothing wrong.

[Oneeyedvic]

Another little point whilst we are on the subject....

Of the 664 people who have been held under the Terrorist Act 2000, 315 were released with no charges against them. And only 17 people have been convicted under these charges.

A lot of people did nothing wrong

And the governement want more power......

 

 

[maurizio]

 I think Big Brother knows our every move anyway, so having an i.d.card wouldn't make any difference. I think times have changed and it would make sense to have  an ID card. Also it would be useful to travel within Europe instead of carring a passport. As an Italian national I already have an Italian ID and was actually shocked when I first came in the UK to hear that there were no ID cards. I was thinking what if I have an accident, if the police stops me, how would they know who I am.

[becks]

Agreed, and what will make them so much harder to fake anway? If people can make passports and stuff they'll be able to make these - waste of money - use it to upgrade the tube or pay nurses more money.

[mullein]

oneeyedvic..you know i dont like tony blair i think we sorted that once before..i have no objection to having an id card,,i know someone in the police and sometimes when they arresst someone that cant speak english have no id on them its a nightmare and a long day of waiting for a translator to arrive just to find out who they are,,i personally dont mind having an id ..and it would also be of benefit to publicans who suspect underage drinkers...its got lots of for and against,,anyway we will all be issued with one eventually so like a lot of things coming from mr blair we wont have a choice,,as we will be ordered to have one,,,mullein

[jimmer]

totally agree. I.D. cards will not stop terrorism, murders, robbers, sex offenders or illegal imigrants. Most disturbing is that politicians still drive through draconian laws through creating a climate of fear. All new technology will inevitably be used for good and bad and biometrics are no exception. When the Colt "peacemaker" was introduced to the world i'm sure it was claimed that it would give the law a decisive advantage in the war against crime, and look what happened there. In this messed up back to front world it wont stop the bad, it will just further commodify the good.

 

jim

[Oneeyedvic]

Mullein - sadly you're probably right. If only there were a sensible opposition.

 

However, if these people who can't speak English have no id on them there will be 2 choices - either arest them or let them go. If they arrest them, then what. If they are illegal immigrants, then there will be proceedings to deport them. If they are not, they may just have forgoten their id docs. If they have a picture on them, they may swap these between brothers (a 1/2" picture square is not great id). There is just a whole minefield, and I don't think that id cards will improve anything. People will always get around it.

 

And if you then don't let people have operations on the NHS without an ID card, do we just let a bona fide Tourist die on the street as he has no id or insurance?

 

A whole minefield. ID cards will not imrove anything but increase bureaucracy and cost the tax payer a packet!

[bernardo]

I agree totally with the speech.

Sorry did I say speech?  I meant "question".

[CHOPS'R'US]

There are advantages and disadvantages to everything aren't there?!

I would be pretty dubious about this, i think it should be more a thing of choice or if you do not have another form of ID then fair enough but i do believe having one will give the government more power over us obviously with all there sat nav etc they can what they want and find out what they want probably without ID cards anyway but with them i guess it makes it a whole lot easier for them. I think making us pay for them if THEY want US to have them is unfair as they make enough from our ruddy taxes the cheeky so and so's but i guess things will never change with them will it!!!!

As having a driving license + a passport i have no need for one of these cards, about stopping terrorists i doubt this is really going to make a whole lot of difference in all fairness and the black market will be booming!! They are going to have to think very carefully what information is put on these cards and who and how it is made available and who has access to these systems. Hmmm a power cut would be interesting wouldn't it

[DavidUK]

Totally agree with you Saint Nick. It's the scary thin end of the wedge to turn us into a police state like the US is becoming, where you can be locked up and tortured without charge and without legal representation. There is also the huge cost of this scheme - money that could be spent better elsewhere (and I don't mean on bombs to kill innocent foreigners!).

[Tweed]

Saint Nick, I totally agree with you. I am dismayed at the amount of people that I've talked to that actually agree with Blunkett. The usual response is, if you've nothing to hide then what's the objection? I don't have anything to hide, but I don't want to share my details with all and sundry.

[Miss Zippy]

Completely agree with you St Nick.  It�s frightening to think of the extent to which our civil liberties could be eroded, all under the guise of being for our benefit, to protect us from terrorists/ prevent the influx of illegal immigrants etc.  I don�t buy that at all.  Organised terrorists are sophisticated and have the resources available to be able to overcome the problems national ID cards present to their activities. The money and effort needed to set up a national ID scheme would be better directed at beefing up and improving the quality of our intelligence services.

[El D]

And yet I predict politicians who oppose the act will be accused of disrupting measure designed to protect us, and the great baying moronic masses will agree. I never thought I would see such blatant disregard for sensible argument as this govt has produced.

[robbieh]

Sometimes i think people think these cards are going to have radio transmitters in them so we can be followed around or something. The only thing I'm against with these cards is the cost. I can;t see that they'll infringe on my human rights, I keep getting told they will, but i can't see that they actually will.