Where did Space come from

[Yai]

Okay a difficult one for you. I understand that there was a big bang and that's how all the matter in the universe was created. However, where did the actual vaccum of 'space' come from in the first place? How can it just be there?? And also, surely there must be edges to it? How can you have something which goes on forever? It's like saying that a huge room doesn't have any walls and just goes on forever. It doesn't make sense.

[Pinotage]

The simple answer is that no-one knows.

 

Many people believe religion gives the answer, which is that 'god' made it. Which begs the question, who made god.

[spiff]

as far as i understand it, the actual "space" in the universe was created with matter and is "stretching" as it expands. one analogy is the outside of a balloon: if you draw two dots on it and blow it up,they move further and further apart. you can run your finger around the balloon without ever reaching an "edge". all this is in higher dimentions mind you, but seeing as we are only capable of thinking in 4 of them,it's the nearest you can get to imagining them......er, i think.   xxx

[bernardo]

spiff is correct.  It is possible for space to be what physicists call "finite and unbounded" which means that it doesn't have any edges, but it doesn't "go on forever" either.

 

Imagine the Earth.  Common sense tells us that (apart from local irregularities like buildings and mountains) the Earth is "flat".  In other words, it looks flat; we go in straight lines, we travel sideways; we do not perceive any curves.  But due to long-distance travel and scientific advances, we now understand that the Earth which seems flat is in fact a curved surface on the outside of a sphere.  But the Earth is so big that we cannot get a sense of the curvature in our everyday lives.

 

If you travel in one direction on the surface of the Earth, what happens?  You do not go on forever, but you eventually end up where you started from.  If you squiggle around in different directions, you will eventually keep coming back top places you've been to before.   Hence the surface of the Earth is a finite size (even though there aren't any walls to enclose it, or edges to fall off).

 

[bernardo]

In physical terms, the surface of the Earth is a 2-dimensional surface of a 3-dimensional sphere.  Similarly, we can say that the universe (the space we live in) is a 3-dimensional surface of a 4-dimensional hypersphere.  So if you go off into space in a straight line, you will not go on forever, but you will eventually come back to the Earth from the opposite direction (without ever having turned round).  It's a bit like travelling round the surface of the balloon that spiff was talking about.  The dots on the balloon are like the galaxies in space - they are moving further apart as the balloon/ the universe expands.

 

And yes, the space itself (the vacuum) came into existence along with time and matter at the time of the Big Bang.  It wasn't there beforehand (waiting for the Big Bang to happen inside it) because there was no "before".

[Yai]

Bernardo if the vaccum wasn't here before the big bang... what was here?

[Clanad]

The answer to your last question borders on the theological in that absolutely nothing existed before the Big Bang.  Not one molecule, atom, quark or, any laws of physics as we know them.  I'm not sure the human mind can comprehend such "nothingness". It's akin to infinity.  Additionally, time did not exist... there was no "before"...

[Yai]

Clanad so what caused the big bang if there was nothing around the cause it? You're right I can't comprehend it at all. It just doesn't seem possible that there could have been absolutely nothing. No wonder so many believe God created everything.. a nice simple solution. (even though it aint true).

[Clanad]

I won't get into a longwinded, fruitless discussion about God, but I would ask... how do you know since no one was there?  Many well educated and credentialed astrophysicists and theoretical mathmaticians believe the evidence indicates such a fine tuning of design that there must be a "First Cause".  I would suggest only that you consider all available evidence then render a verdict...

[arthurstace]

Fine, Clanad. And what solid proof of God or a god can you offer us?

[Clanad]

Pinkninja, please re-read my post concerning longwinded, fruitless, etc. This is not the appropriate section to debate the issue.  I would only ask, with all due respect, what solid proof against God can you offer?

[QmunkE]

If you accept M-Theory, then the universe exists due to the collision of two or more "membranes" which exist as part of an 11-dimensional multiverse. Strange, but mathematically possible (apparently).

[arthurstace]

"...what solid proof against God can you offer?"

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

[spiff]

it has been postulated that in the very early moments of the "big bang", conditions were such that the VERY small universe (10-32) i.e plank length, could fold back upon itself and cause it's own creation.  know it's a paradox from our point of view, but it does make the whole idea of a "first cause" obsolete.  xx

[magicdice]

well "nothing" can split into an electron & an antielectron, which is a net of nothing, provided they reform again at some point shortly after, so you can both have nothing and not-nothing. and, yai, the reason it "doesn't make sense" is because the infinite is difficult to comprehend. then add into it that there are different sizes of infinity - two things can be infinite but one twice as large as the other. and a vacuum isn't "there", it's the absence of everything

[Zen82]

Everybody's talking about the balloons and a two dimensional surface on a three dimensional sphere -- but you're missing the point of the excercise -- you can run your fingers around a constantly expanding balloon but around the balloon is the room that you're in and around that is the atmosphere and around that is space and the other galaxies but the sphere that contains the universe -- what's around that?

[Zen82]

Besides -- I'm gonna prove to you that there is something that is more powerful than you or I -- be it god, vishnu, or a giant monkey with wings, who knows.  Everyone knows the doppler effect with sound compressing as it comes toward you and spreading out as it moves away.  Light does the same.  It is blue shifted (higher energy as it comes at you) and red shifted (lower energy as it moves away).  Every galaxy in every position around the sphere of our planet is red shifted -- hence the universe is constantly expanding.  Reverse that say a quadrillion years and you arrive at on molecular mass with all the matter and energy in existence now.  If matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed in form, then where did that first initial ball of matter come from.  Something out there has to be more powerful than you or I to simply create matter.  If anyone thinks they can, then summon me up a cheeseburger, all this typing makes me hungry.