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no more religion
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Will all the major religions eventually die out due to lack of interest and irrelevance ?
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I didn't say 'Neo-Darwinism' was a term purely used by creationists to describe aspects of Nazism. I agree with Myers that the so-called Neo-Darwinism in Nazism is nothing more complicated than artificial selection, an elementary concept that has virtually b*gger all to do with Darwinism, but which has been identified with it nevertheless.
I said 'Darwinian' was a term well-liked by creationists and explained why.
I think it's massively missing the point to blame Nazism on anything other than itself. The notion that Hitler was an atheist is at best highly contentious. There were certainly lots of senior Nazis with bizzare quasi-pagan ideas.
It's also not rocket science to work out that the vast majority of soliders in the German army, whether SS or regular, must have identified themselves as Christians. There is also an extensive history of anti-semitism in Christianity (medieval pogroms), particularly German varieties (Luther, J�rg Lanz von Liebenfels).
I've never thought Christianity was to blame for Nazism either. I've only ever pointed out that to blame it on either atheism or Darwin is obviously retarded.
I also think Anti-Defamation League National Director Abraham H. Foxman makes a pertinant comment:, "Trivializing the Holocaust comes from either ignorance at best or, at worst, a mendacious attempt to score political points in the culture war on the backs of six million Jewish victims and others who died at the hands of the Nazis."
I said 'Darwinian' was a term well-liked by creationists and explained why.
I think it's massively missing the point to blame Nazism on anything other than itself. The notion that Hitler was an atheist is at best highly contentious. There were certainly lots of senior Nazis with bizzare quasi-pagan ideas.
It's also not rocket science to work out that the vast majority of soliders in the German army, whether SS or regular, must have identified themselves as Christians. There is also an extensive history of anti-semitism in Christianity (medieval pogroms), particularly German varieties (Luther, J�rg Lanz von Liebenfels).
I've never thought Christianity was to blame for Nazism either. I've only ever pointed out that to blame it on either atheism or Darwin is obviously retarded.
I also think Anti-Defamation League National Director Abraham H. Foxman makes a pertinant comment:, "Trivializing the Holocaust comes from either ignorance at best or, at worst, a mendacious attempt to score political points in the culture war on the backs of six million Jewish victims and others who died at the hands of the Nazis."
I can't answer for other people with regard to their views of Nazism, they identified their policies as "scientific" and it was they who used Darwin to excuse their actions, a bit like those Mormons in the U.S using God.
It would be difficult to predict how members of the S.S. would've reacted if they'd won the war and the showdown with the church began.
But Hitler was an atheist (I've read alot about Hitler including "Mein Kampf") at best he had a leaning towards paganism (he certainly indulged it in their parades and tiny bits of it in his presence) but there is no record I've ever come across of Hitler offering his devotions to anything other than his mother.
I agree about the widespread anti-semitism in Germany at the time. Linz too was very anti-semitic (Jews were'nt allowed to live there, and some clowns claim his Grandfather was Jewish! LOL).
Indeed the wrong question is often asked, it should'nt be why was Hitler so anti-semitic? Rather why was Germany so anti-semitic?
But this madness was a madness of people, not faith, it was politics.
And history teaches us wherever religion is suppressed politics take it's place and an even worse fate befalls it's inhabitants.
Totally off thread I'm hoping to go to Tibet with future Mrs. Ev in September, if not we'll go to Guilin and then Long Tou (in Fu Sui county, Guangxi) to stay with her Gran. Can't wait...
It would be difficult to predict how members of the S.S. would've reacted if they'd won the war and the showdown with the church began.
But Hitler was an atheist (I've read alot about Hitler including "Mein Kampf") at best he had a leaning towards paganism (he certainly indulged it in their parades and tiny bits of it in his presence) but there is no record I've ever come across of Hitler offering his devotions to anything other than his mother.
I agree about the widespread anti-semitism in Germany at the time. Linz too was very anti-semitic (Jews were'nt allowed to live there, and some clowns claim his Grandfather was Jewish! LOL).
Indeed the wrong question is often asked, it should'nt be why was Hitler so anti-semitic? Rather why was Germany so anti-semitic?
But this madness was a madness of people, not faith, it was politics.
And history teaches us wherever religion is suppressed politics take it's place and an even worse fate befalls it's inhabitants.
Totally off thread I'm hoping to go to Tibet with future Mrs. Ev in September, if not we'll go to Guilin and then Long Tou (in Fu Sui county, Guangxi) to stay with her Gran. Can't wait...
Well, I'm not in favour of the supression of religion either, and never have been. I hope that, as the OP suggested, religion will simply fade away as it dawns on their adherants that they're utter nonsense.
By the way, I'm not aware of a single mention by Hitler of Darwin or 'Darwinism'. Again, although I agree with you that the Nazi's had their agenda and then found Neo-Darwinism and their stunted growth cousins the eugenecists, to give it an apparent basis in science, far more often cited is Luther. He also stated the genocide of the American Indians was an inspiration, something which again had no connection with Darwin/ism.
There are loads of quotes that support the fact that Hitler was not an atheist, by the way.
�My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God�s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice� And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." Adolf Hitler, April 12, 1922. From �The speeches of Adolf Hitler�
By the way, I'm not aware of a single mention by Hitler of Darwin or 'Darwinism'. Again, although I agree with you that the Nazi's had their agenda and then found Neo-Darwinism and their stunted growth cousins the eugenecists, to give it an apparent basis in science, far more often cited is Luther. He also stated the genocide of the American Indians was an inspiration, something which again had no connection with Darwin/ism.
There are loads of quotes that support the fact that Hitler was not an atheist, by the way.
�My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God�s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice� And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." Adolf Hitler, April 12, 1922. From �The speeches of Adolf Hitler�
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." Mein Kampf Vol 1, Chapter 2
"Certainly we don�t have to discuss these matters with the Jews, the most modern inventors of this cultural perfume. Their whole existence is an embodied protest against the aesthetics of the Lord�s image." Mein Kampf, Vol 1, Chapter 6
"The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present-day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties� and this against their own nation." Mein Kampf Vol 1, Chapter 11
Whether or not you want to argue that he was simply saying those things, it's pretty hard to state for certain that he was an atheist or that his views were a product of such when he so clearly identifes them as coming from Christian beliefs.
"Certainly we don�t have to discuss these matters with the Jews, the most modern inventors of this cultural perfume. Their whole existence is an embodied protest against the aesthetics of the Lord�s image." Mein Kampf, Vol 1, Chapter 6
"The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present-day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties� and this against their own nation." Mein Kampf Vol 1, Chapter 11
Whether or not you want to argue that he was simply saying those things, it's pretty hard to state for certain that he was an atheist or that his views were a product of such when he so clearly identifes them as coming from Christian beliefs.
"You may find me guilty, but the Goddess of history that judges us will declare us innocent" Hitller 1924 on trial for treason.
Hitler knew his audience and they're all examples of typical Hitlerian prose, the substantive part of his speech is the Jew every word he is using is against the Jew his audience will have been very Christian, and all of them would have been "churched" (at a guess) so how do you to get past "Thou shalt not kill"? How do you inspire a great nation of people to go against everything they believe in?
You say look at the Jew, why is he richer than you? Look at the Jew why does he exert power over you?
You place their exclusion and persecution into a religious context, aided and abetted by an already anti-semitic populus.
When Mussolini was overthrown Hitler wnted to occupy the Vatican "getting out the whole lot of swine". Speaking privately to Goebells about "Germany's future India" he made it clear that there would be no place for the Christian Churches the "Church question" would have to wait Goebells noted "after the war it has to find a general solution....There is, namely, an insoluble opposition between the Christian and aGermanic-heoic world-view".
Look at Upper Bavaria in 1941 the removal of cucifixes, the replacement of Nuns by "brown sisters" talking about the winter crisis in Russia and in response to the "insidious" behaviour during the winter following from various people urging him to destroy the Christian Churches
Hitler knew his audience and they're all examples of typical Hitlerian prose, the substantive part of his speech is the Jew every word he is using is against the Jew his audience will have been very Christian, and all of them would have been "churched" (at a guess) so how do you to get past "Thou shalt not kill"? How do you inspire a great nation of people to go against everything they believe in?
You say look at the Jew, why is he richer than you? Look at the Jew why does he exert power over you?
You place their exclusion and persecution into a religious context, aided and abetted by an already anti-semitic populus.
When Mussolini was overthrown Hitler wnted to occupy the Vatican "getting out the whole lot of swine". Speaking privately to Goebells about "Germany's future India" he made it clear that there would be no place for the Christian Churches the "Church question" would have to wait Goebells noted "after the war it has to find a general solution....There is, namely, an insoluble opposition between the Christian and aGermanic-heoic world-view".
Look at Upper Bavaria in 1941 the removal of cucifixes, the replacement of Nuns by "brown sisters" talking about the winter crisis in Russia and in response to the "insidious" behaviour during the winter following from various people urging him to destroy the Christian Churches
after the war he stated that a revolution against the state would occur and that he had given Himmler express orders should there be a danger of the Reich "sinking into chaos", to "shoot the criminals in all concentration camps".
The examples of Hitler's antipathy to religion (and Christianity in particular) are manyfold, ther really is no 2 ways about it. He was an atheist.
In a war were millions of people died it's not unusual to question the presence of God.
But then "God does'nt always play ball" now who was it who said that?
Oh yeah Einstein, the great "creationist" thinker?
The examples of Hitler's antipathy to religion (and Christianity in particular) are manyfold, ther really is no 2 ways about it. He was an atheist.
In a war were millions of people died it's not unusual to question the presence of God.
But then "God does'nt always play ball" now who was it who said that?
Oh yeah Einstein, the great "creationist" thinker?
Sorry meant to add, the confusion arises due to the disparity of the "public" and private Hitler.
Have a look at the forced sterilisation program for the "feeble minded" this included people who had attempted suicide.
Compare that with Geili Raubal (Hitler's niece) who committed suicide (and I think made a few attempts before) and of Eva Braun who tried to kill herself many times.
Have a look at the forced sterilisation program for the "feeble minded" this included people who had attempted suicide.
Compare that with Geili Raubal (Hitler's niece) who committed suicide (and I think made a few attempts before) and of Eva Braun who tried to kill herself many times.
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