What would it take to convince you.....

[R1Geezer]

That your religion is complete and utter b0ll0x? I am an athiest and although I accept that science does not have all the answers generally they are more believable more tested and bear more general scrutiny than any "faith".

I'm not aiming this at any particular group of fairy tales just a the whole general need to believe in various God squad systems.

[123everton]

Christians believe "thou shalt not kill", Muslims too (alledgedly).
There's the answer Octavius, if an non-believer murders you for his own reasons he's not a "true atheist" must be one of those crack pot branch dividian atheists.
All sin is founded in reason.

[mibn2cweus]

There is no conflict in a rational mind between what is in ones own best interest and what is in the best interest of all who recognise that reason is the means by which we determine and foster the will to live with each other in peace. Reason dictates that there is nothing to be gained from engaging in relationships that are not mutually beneficial, that value is maintained only by earning and trading and not by taking, either by force or deceit.

Rational individuals realise that self-respect is their greatest asset and that bargaining away ones self-esteem is the lowest form of self-betrayal constituting theft of ones own most vital reason to live, knowing that they have earned the right to exist.

Reason is the means we use to determine what is right from what is wrong. Willful indulgence in falacious "reasoning" is the only 'sin'.

[123everton]

On a personal level I view humanity as being in essence capable of 2 kinds of sin, sin against God and sin against creation.
If one sins against God I believe God will forgive you because God loves you and knows what's in your heart to sin against God creates no victim and sheds no tears on Earth. If one sins against creation it is different you have tainted something or someone with your actions.
A simple analogy would be to view sin as a "crime" and in terms of reasoning, in a court of law the defence would call it mitigation, the prosecution would call it motive and the victim would say it's an excuse.
I've yet to meet anyone with a truly "rational" mind, love's irrational, anger's irrational, pride's irrational these and so many other things afflict even the most "rational" of minds yours(?) mine everyone's except Mr. Spock perhaps.
You're not a Vulcan are you?....
What you offer is an idealistic piece of reasoning which makes no effort to account for the humanity of humanity.
If the reason and the reasoning are by nature and or by universal recognition "falacious" (say schizhophrenia) it is, alas, still a reason. Can you think of anyone, anywhere, ever do anything to anyone for no "reason" (however falacious you deem it to be) at all?
I look forward to the link...

[Octavius]

Thanks for the clarification 123. For a moment I was thinking I was being religious all wrongly and that I should really be out 'there' being mean and vicious and cruel.

I was almost inclined to be a peace loving hippy free love everybody's chum stay at home good boy atheist.

But then I would have been a saint. Darn it, you just can't win.

[mibn2cweus]

Everton, You define reason so broadly as to render the term meaningless. Reason is the application of logic (non-contradictory identification) to thinking. Without reason, thinking becomes an incoherent jungle of disassociated thoughts. For instance, "love" is by definition neither rational nor irrational. Love is love, that is, an emotional response to something evaluated within ones context of knowledge as of value to them. How one reacts to this emotion will vary according to what they believe is of value to them. How one subsequently responds to what can be a very powerful emotion in relationship to what one believes is a stake depends on their knowledge, experience and rationality. The extent to which one responds rationally or irrationally to an emotion depends on their reasoning ability. Love can provide the will to do equally great or terrible things. Reason determines which.

If you love humanity as I do you would hope that reason prevails in any circumstance as the ability to reason is humanities defining quality as well as our means of survival and of improving the quality of human life.

[123everton]

So the answer is yes, you are a Vulcan.
Reason=motive, it does'nt have to be rational.
Anthony Walker was murdered because he was black, a completely senseless irrational act but that was the reason, the holocaust was apparently because "the Jews" were their "misfortune" totally irrational but that was part of the reason, a mild mannered man could be driven to kill if he found out his wife was having an affair.
It was "logical" to the NAZIs to kill Jews, Slavs and the handicapped, it was "logical" to deny the black man the vote in South Africa.
Reason does'nt have to be reasonable...

[mibn2cweus]

So the answer is yes, you are a Vulcan.
Equivocation

Reason=motive, it does'nt have to be rational.
Equivocation

Anthony Walker was murdered because he was black, a completely senseless irrational act but that was the reason, the holocaust was apparently because "the Jews" were their "misfortune" totally irrational but that was part of the reason, a mild mannered man could be driven to kill if he found out his wife was having an affair.
It was "logical" to the NAZIs to kill Jews, Slavs and the handicapped, it was "logical" to deny the black man the vote in South Africa.
Reason does'nt have to be reasonable...

Until one learns to differentiate between a valid reason and what in each case above was offered as a �reason� by the ones engaging in irrational ill-�logical� acts, ones �reasoning� is no better than theirs. There is never a good valid logical reasonable reason to be unreasonable. To equate reason with what one chooses to offer as �justification� for or of immoral actions is tantamount to issuing a blank check to depravity, theirs and yours.

The initiation of the use of force against someone who is "black", a "jew", sexually dissatisfied, a Vulcan or otherwise is never reasonable, it constitutes a declaration that the initiators �reasons� whims are superior to the rights of the victim, among them the right to choose with whom and under what conditions to freely enter into a mutually agreed relationship.

You have every right and I welcome you to explain when and where my reasoning is incorrect but to equate reasoning itself with schizophrenia and declare that �reason is a sin� is irresponsible intellectual suicide and by virtue of the fact that we rely on reason to stay alive, attempted murder, and now that you have been informed from hence forth, attempted premeditated murder.

[beso]

The Bible shows us that if you commit sin against God that He sends the Chosen People to massace your whole society. When he thinks it is time he will have them kill everyone.

It also says the sins of the father will be visited upon the sons. Very merciful and loving indeed.

[Robb Phoenix]

Though I am a Christian by birth, I do not follow its teachings in entirety.
I believe in the essence of religion.
In other words-I believe inGod
Why?
It is the only thing which keeps me positive when I face failure.
Believing in God gives me hope in times of distress.
Also the belief of facing punishment in after-life helps me to abstain from sin>.
I believe in God for my heart.

I ALSO believe in Science.Why as long as we don't find out what happened on and before the Planck epoch, we cannot totally disprove the idea of God.

I keep religion and science (my heart and my brain) in balance and make sure that one doesn't hinder the progress of the other.

I am not a mindless robot but a pacifist and a humanist solely because of my belief in God.

[Robb Phoenix]

ps:
I am not forcing my beliefs on you guys. Religion keeps ME from maintaining an indifferent and callous towards humanity.
Do what pleases you and may you remain forever happy and positive.

[123everton]

Take a chill pill mibs!!
Nurse will be over soon.
I said all sin is founded in reason.
Not all sin is founded in logic.
People will commit sin and justify it in any way they choose, they can couch it in religion, they can couch it in politics they can couch it in something else.
The principal difference you appear to espouse is that a creationist kills for God whilst an atheist kills for himself. Both are equally sinful as the victim's still very much dead. I'm not excusing irrational violent reasoning, but I accept it exists and always will. We have free will, atheism will not take away peoples propensity for violence. I know many violent atheists, met many, many more. I've never been spat at by a Muslim, attacked by a Buddhist or punched by a Presbyterian. I don't preach the gospels or spread the word, I deal with people and I honestly believe if they had God they'd be happier. Cos they're downright miserable now, and money aint gonna help em.
Morality is a subjective appraisal not an objective mindset whether that morality is borne out of an atheist or creationist ethos. Logic is similar to the same wanton differings, if it were'nt we'd all be clones, drones or Vulcans.
Live long and prosper....

[mibn2cweus]

The virtues of reason are widely understood by more than just Vulcans. This is evident in attempts by those who, after realising the consequences of having acted against it, use it in the hope of justifying their actions, both to a jury and to themselves.

Morality is making the right choice, that is, the choice which contributes to the life and well-being of those whose life and freedom to choose depends on making the right choices. Reason is the means by which the determination of what contributes to the life and well being of those whose life and well-being depends on making the right choices is made. Therefore reason is the objective standard of morality and reality is the final arbiter which ultimately determines by the consequences of ones choices on ones life, whether ones reasoning is valid.

The consequences of following the dictates of an unseen God and His self-appointed spokespersons or any other dictator (atheist or otherwise) of what they choose to define as right and wrong, objectify everything that is wrong with a subjective morality.

[123everton]

I actually agree with the basics of what you say, but what I fear you're not taking into account is that to achieve that high idealistic notion is virtually impossible to the point of impracticable.
The way forward is to accept the differences we all have and enjoy the things we share.
Looking back over this thread it is interesting to note that the most rabid or hate filled answers are from atheists, in a post designed to raise creationist dander....

[Marijn]

Which are the "rabid and hate filled" answers?

[123everton]

My mistake, cross threaded. OOOPS!