ChatterBank3 mins ago
Electric Heating Systems
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I currently have night storgae heaters but would like to change them for obvious reasons. I have been told that to install GCH would cost far too much and that there would be a problem in getting a gas supply into my property. The corgi guy that came around did suggest that there is now an electric version of GCH on the market that works in a similar way. Does anyone have any knowledge of this and could advise me if its any good, cost effective etc? There was also a suggestion of possibly having under floor heating again I know very little and was wondering if someone could please give me some guidance?
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underfloor heating doesnt really get a room warm that easily.
Ive got a waterheater in my flat that i installed a couple of years ago. I was told that it would also heat radiators in the flat if i ever got rid of my night storage.
it was similar to this http://www.heatraesadia.com/HS/HeatraeS.nsf/Pr oductLookup/MegafloHESystemFit?OpenDocument
Ive got a waterheater in my flat that i installed a couple of years ago. I was told that it would also heat radiators in the flat if i ever got rid of my night storage.
it was similar to this http://www.heatraesadia.com/HS/HeatraeS.nsf/Pr oductLookup/MegafloHESystemFit?OpenDocument
I'll try and explain in straightforward terms why this is a non-starter (from a cost-effectiveness point of view).
Including all the recent price increases, the current approx cost of different energy sources in the UK is as follows: -
Gas - 3.5p per kWh
Off-peak electricity - 7p per kWh
Peak (day) electricity - 13p per kWh
Oil - 5p per kWh
Now the big advantage of electricity is that it is easy to 'pipe' to where you want it - cables are easy to lay. So this makes it relatively cheap to install. Also 100% of the energy you pay for goes into useful heat in your house.
Gas and oil are disadvantaged by the fact that the boiler which converts energy into heat wastes some heat up the flue. Modern boilers are more efficient, but assuming an efficiency figure of 80% (for every �100 you spend on fuel, only �80 of it is usefully converted to heat), a rough equivalent cost table is as follows: -
Gas 4.4p per useful kWh
Off-peak electricity 7p per useful kWh
Peak electricity 13p per useful kWh
Oil 6.3p per useful kWh
Now you can see that peak electricity is still around 2x as much as any of the other types. This electric version of GCH, unless it uses off-peak electricity at night, is STILL going to suffer the basis problem that the energy source feeding is incredibly costly.
The system that Redcrx refers to is good in that it stores the energy in a 'thermal store' of water. It is fine for DHW and maybe a couple of rads. However the size of the thermal store needed to store enough energy at night to provide enough heat for space heating during the day would be enormous - maybe 10 or more of the Megaflo units in Redcrx's link.
Including all the recent price increases, the current approx cost of different energy sources in the UK is as follows: -
Gas - 3.5p per kWh
Off-peak electricity - 7p per kWh
Peak (day) electricity - 13p per kWh
Oil - 5p per kWh
Now the big advantage of electricity is that it is easy to 'pipe' to where you want it - cables are easy to lay. So this makes it relatively cheap to install. Also 100% of the energy you pay for goes into useful heat in your house.
Gas and oil are disadvantaged by the fact that the boiler which converts energy into heat wastes some heat up the flue. Modern boilers are more efficient, but assuming an efficiency figure of 80% (for every �100 you spend on fuel, only �80 of it is usefully converted to heat), a rough equivalent cost table is as follows: -
Gas 4.4p per useful kWh
Off-peak electricity 7p per useful kWh
Peak electricity 13p per useful kWh
Oil 6.3p per useful kWh
Now you can see that peak electricity is still around 2x as much as any of the other types. This electric version of GCH, unless it uses off-peak electricity at night, is STILL going to suffer the basis problem that the energy source feeding is incredibly costly.
The system that Redcrx refers to is good in that it stores the energy in a 'thermal store' of water. It is fine for DHW and maybe a couple of rads. However the size of the thermal store needed to store enough energy at night to provide enough heat for space heating during the day would be enormous - maybe 10 or more of the Megaflo units in Redcrx's link.
There is much misunderstanding about UFH. There are 2 types - water and electricity. Water-based systems substitute radiators on the walls for 'radiators in the floor'. Fired by one of the cheaper energy sources (gas or oil) they do work well. Electricity-based systems are merely the same old enemy - an electric heater powered by peak-priced electricity within a floormat. The cost is at least as much - and probably more to run - because you are trying to run 'central heating' by powering it with expensive peak electricity.
The reason why many people with electric mat UFH heating are disappointed is because the capacity of the 'mat' is not big enough - it needs around 175W per square metre of floor area to be successful. At that rate of use of electricity its best use is for small rooms like bathrooms.
The reason why many people with electric mat UFH heating are disappointed is because the capacity of the 'mat' is not big enough - it needs around 175W per square metre of floor area to be successful. At that rate of use of electricity its best use is for small rooms like bathrooms.
buildersmate I don't know where you got your prices for gas/electric I'm looking at a British Gas pricing leaflet and it varies from county to county but averages at:
Gas 7.5 pence per kWh
Electric is more confusing and adopts different price tarrifs. ie:
Electric SINGLE RATE: 25.5 pence per kWh for first 125kWh (per quarter) and 11.5 pence per kWh for electric used after that. (NOTE: NO NIGHT TIME DIFFERENCE)
Electric TWO RATE: 33.5 pence per kWh for first 125 kWh of day consumption (per quarter) then 12.5 pence per kWh then 5.60 pence per kWh per nightime (NOTE: NIGHT TIME TOTALS 7 HOURS AND IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE AND IS CURRENTLY BETWEEN 10PM AND 8AM) so that could mean off peak is 10pm until 5am or 1am until 8am it's anyones guess...
To complicate things further there are tracker and 0 carbon rates.
BUT: only on TWO RATE will you get night time discounts.
Just wear more clothes, jog around the room when hyperthermia begins to creep in and invest in a few hot water bottles. :-)
Gas 7.5 pence per kWh
Electric is more confusing and adopts different price tarrifs. ie:
Electric SINGLE RATE: 25.5 pence per kWh for first 125kWh (per quarter) and 11.5 pence per kWh for electric used after that. (NOTE: NO NIGHT TIME DIFFERENCE)
Electric TWO RATE: 33.5 pence per kWh for first 125 kWh of day consumption (per quarter) then 12.5 pence per kWh then 5.60 pence per kWh per nightime (NOTE: NIGHT TIME TOTALS 7 HOURS AND IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE AND IS CURRENTLY BETWEEN 10PM AND 8AM) so that could mean off peak is 10pm until 5am or 1am until 8am it's anyones guess...
To complicate things further there are tracker and 0 carbon rates.
BUT: only on TWO RATE will you get night time discounts.
Just wear more clothes, jog around the room when hyperthermia begins to creep in and invest in a few hot water bottles. :-)
http://www.scottishpower.co.uk/pricing_pdfs/ge neral.pdf
The above pricing chart comes from Scottish Power and applies from 1st September. In my experience it is one of the cheaper suppliers (but maybe not true in every area) - one of the problems with all this comparison business is that prices do vary across the country, by supplier.
On page 4, the electricity cost for quarterly DD payment averages (across the country) about 12p per kWh for dayrate use. But if one uses dual rate, the day rate goes up by an average of about 1p per kWh to about 13p. The night use average rate is about 5p per kWh.
On page 7, the gas cost for quarterly DD payment averages about 4p per kWh.
This is not where I sourced the prices I quoted yesterday - it was based on prices in my area. However this price chart I find pretty useful as a comparison.
All prices without 5% VAT. OK, so I undercooked the quoted night rate, which is closer to 5p nationally, not 7p. The point I was seeking to make about peak rate electricity used for space heating is still valid, I trust?
British Gas is still an expensive supplier, it seems from your research.
The above pricing chart comes from Scottish Power and applies from 1st September. In my experience it is one of the cheaper suppliers (but maybe not true in every area) - one of the problems with all this comparison business is that prices do vary across the country, by supplier.
On page 4, the electricity cost for quarterly DD payment averages (across the country) about 12p per kWh for dayrate use. But if one uses dual rate, the day rate goes up by an average of about 1p per kWh to about 13p. The night use average rate is about 5p per kWh.
On page 7, the gas cost for quarterly DD payment averages about 4p per kWh.
This is not where I sourced the prices I quoted yesterday - it was based on prices in my area. However this price chart I find pretty useful as a comparison.
All prices without 5% VAT. OK, so I undercooked the quoted night rate, which is closer to 5p nationally, not 7p. The point I was seeking to make about peak rate electricity used for space heating is still valid, I trust?
British Gas is still an expensive supplier, it seems from your research.
Sorry if I came across as putting a right to a wrong. I'm interested in this and think everyone should know what they are paying. I've followed the link but it's blank. The leaflet I was quoting from includes Scottish Power, London Electric, Seeboard, Yorkshire Manweb etc etc (14 suppliers) and the average was taken from that. Currently electric varies from 22.9 pp kWh (SWEB) to 26.9 pp kWh (Northern) (Single Tier effective from 29 July 08.. In the same leaflet it states future prices but doesn't give a date which increases to SWEB 25.7 and Northern 29.7
AVERAGE OF 5 PENCE per kHw more. STILL TO RISE SOON. That's a lot.
AVERAGE OF 5 PENCE per kHw more. STILL TO RISE SOON. That's a lot.
The weblink is to an Adobe Acrobat file (suffix PDF). Apologises - I wrongly assumed that most folks have this free bit of software on their PCs now. I can't print the whole of the tables into AB - too much information in the Tables.
I agree - its a very interesting point about the relative costs of these various energy sources.
I agree - its a very interesting point about the relative costs of these various energy sources.
im tempted to say that nothing is impossible if your prepared to spend the money but if you've had a corgi engineer round and he says its going to be hard to get a gas supply into your house then i can't argue with that without surveying your house myself.
is your house on natural gas? is the gas supply already present i.e. do you have a gas meter or any other gas appliances in your house?
what type of house is it? number of rooms etc?
is your house on natural gas? is the gas supply already present i.e. do you have a gas meter or any other gas appliances in your house?
what type of house is it? number of rooms etc?
I live in a 2nd floor 1 bed apartment. I currently have three heaters that are run off Night Storage Heating. There is a gas supply already there that had been used by the previous occupants years ago. The issue that I have is the fact as I don't own the actual building just the leasehold to the apartment there is an issue of running the pipes around or through the building (the quickest way would be to run it through the communal electric cupboard, but I have been adised that this will not be an option). I hope that makes sense?
Yes it does - you don't have a legal right to pass new pipework or cables through parts of the building that you don't own (it seems). Quite a common situation. In which case gas installation may be more cumbersome - only a gas pipework installation company can assess the situation and advise how much they would want to charge for what is basically a new supply to your property. You will have to balance the relatively high cost of this work versus what you might save in running costs. Much will depend on how long you intend to live there as to whether it is worth it.
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