Justified violence?

[JockSporran]

I want to be a committed pacifist, but it's not that simple. Supposing a terrorist or criminal was about to shoot one of my family through the head, but I had a gun and was able to aim it at the gunman's head in time. Let's face it, I would pull the trigger and blotch the muthafkr's brains all over the kitchen wall. So I suppose I am not really a committed pacifist.

Any committed pacifists out there? What would you do in the circumstances? I am very serious.

[andy-hughes]

I would do the same.

I think you can be a committed pacifist - undertake to solve issues by non-violent means, and still reconcile the desire to defend your loved ones in an instance like this.

To refuse to do so would require a religious aversion to violence, as in being a Yogi or Budhist, but I would find myself able to reconcile my beliefs and intentions with my need to defend those I love.

[JockSporran]

In A Pickle - please answer.

[naomi24]

This was basically the question I asked on your other thread, Jock. How does a committed pacifist reconcile their belief with the reality of a justified war, such as that against Hitler, or, in this case, violence towards a loved one? There's a real moral and ethical dilemma here. Do personal principles and convictions take precedence at the expense of the innocent, or do we have a moral duty to protect those who are unable to protect themselves?

In the circumstances you describe, I'd hate to do it, but I know I would pull the trigger.

(Sorry I can't answer your question, but this is such an interesting subject, I found it difficult not to add my thoughts).

[JockSporran]

Naomi - no apology necessary. This is a follow-on from my previous thread. I had to start it because it deals with a single issue. But it is very important, and I value your input. x

[naomi24]

Thanks Jock. This is a fundamental issue which, understandably, seems to be worrying you a lot. I know I could never reconcile it.

[keyplus90]

As I said on the other thread that complete pacifism does not exist and if it does then it is either weakness or illusion. Sometimes showing that you have the ability to retaliate actually averts the aggression towards you or the others around you. If that terrorists knew that you had a gun and you would not hesitate using that then he wouldn�t have dared put the gun to your loved one�s head. Or he might have not been there in the first place.

As I said earlier that you should never be the aggressor but you should never be a sufferer either. Otherwise there would be no end to the violence.

[R1Geezer]

committed pacifists are the cause of a lot of violence. Eg the second world war could have been stopped by minor action in the early/mid 30's but no a bunch hand wringing liberals sentenced millions to die by innaction. There is no such thing as a pacifist the same as there no one that is pro war. You need strength so you don't need strength, it's a paradox! It's the old saying, if you want peace prepare for war.

[JockSporran]

InAPickle - according to the Quaker Quest booklet 'Twelve Quakers and Pacifism' (which I obtained at my local Quaker group) it says 'Do I have to be a pacifist to be a Quaker? The answer is very simple: no'.

In discussions and reading I have learned that this is a major stumbling block to people who want to join the Quakers.

I think this (at the moment). Avoid premeditated murder including war killing. Live a life of shunning killing and violence. If an emergency situation like the one I describe arises, you may go by your emotions and instincts, so you that doesn't make your decision 'evil'. I am trying to reconcile on this. I continue to explore.

[MsEVP]

Hi Jock:

First of all, (I don`t think this was mentioned) why aim for the head? why not shoot the aggressor in the leg?

Secondly, I am in total agreement with In A Pickle. If it is my fate, or my family`s/friends`, to die at someone else`s hand, so be it. They will be the ones to answer to God.

I believe that all living things have a spark of the divine in them and this must be respected at all times.

I also believe in karma and that we will only find ourselves in a particular situation if we were meant to, if it was designed that way, the fruit of our actions to bring about a lesson that we have to learn.

[RavenD]

Well The Bible instructs us not to Murder. Killing someone if they are about to kill you, a member of your family is quite justified.
I refer to Exo 22:2 If the thief is found breaking in, and is stricken and dies, no blood shall be shed for him.

I did some research on this and found that if you stand idle and let the person commit the act you are just as much to blame for the persons death as the murder.

I can post a link to the topic if you like.