Perfect bodies...?

[tessaten]

If our bodies were truly created by 'god', and are perfect, then why is genital mutilation acceptable? (This applies to male circumcision and female excision.)

[Le Chat]

I don't know about male circumcision but female circumcision was brought about as a way of trying to stop women straying/leaving their husbands/having affairs...as they have the clitoris cut away, then they have no ability to have an orgasm. The logic being no orgasm=no desire to have sex. It disgusts me to the core of my being. After watching the series where women from this country lived with various tribes, even the women in those tribes were under the illusion that if you weren't circumcised, then you couldn't have children....and the women have obviously all 'bought into this' from the start! Ironically, it seemed that the women still had flings with other men other than their husbands, which goes to show that sex is obviously more than just pleasure!
Your question could also be asked of people who have piercings, tattos, haircuts though.

[naomi24]

It disgusts me to the core of my being.

Me too, Le Chat. I find it difficult to even think about. For women, and in most cases for men, it's all about superstition emanating from religion. In some societies, no matter how cruel and unnecessary the process, or how antiquated the doctrine, religious ritual goes unchallenged. As far as God making us perfect, clearly the people who practice this don't believe he did, since they feel obliged to improve upon his work. Bit of a contradiction there really.

[tessaten]

Le Chat:
Your question could also be asked of people who have piercings, tattos, haircuts though.

I understand what you're saying here, but my question was in regard to religion. It seems that genital mutilation is generally connected with 'god', though haircuts, piercings and tattoos are not (in most cases).

[beso]

Ironically in some religious cultures men don't cut their hair or beards because it would be rejecting the endowments given to them by their god.

Yet the same people happily allow women to be mutilated.

Religion rarely makes sense beyond the context of manipulation.

[naomi24]

tessaten is right. Piercings, tattoos and haircuts, unlike enforced genital mutilation, are a matter of personal choice, and so there can be no comparison.

[Le Chat]

It's just another way of keeping women in their place and has nothing to do with God and everything to do with men.

[terambulan]

genital mutilation...usually done by elders perverts to the young for the elders sexual gratification.

[beso]

I recently read at New Scientist of the practice where some men had one of their testicles crushed as a ritual acceptance into adulthood.

Apparently this was a way of keeping the less powerful males from being too fertile so it could persist even though it reduced the overall fertility of the group.

It is interesting that so many religious practices seem to be based on ritual genital mutilation or other injuries such as the practice of packing ash into pattterned cuts to the skin. These primitive practices belong with practices like ritual sacrifices, bansihed from our cultures.

[tessaten]

I read somewhere of a jewish practice; the (usually elderly) rabbi would cut the baby's foreskin, then enclose the penis in his mouth and suck the foreskin off. I'm not sure where this is practised, and if it continues, but - what's that about??

[jno]

Yes, male circumcision is the norm among Jews as the sign of their covenant with God, which does seem a little odd. (Is God circumcised? If so, by whom?) It's done when the boy is a baby; Muslims, I believe, do it at puberty, which makes my toes curl a bit. But it was actually quite common among non-Jews in the western world for much of last century, for 'health' rather than religious reasons. This is changing as doctors see no reason to mutilate healthy children.

[keyplus90]

Jno � Just a bit of correction, Yes Muslims do circumcise their children but puberty bit might be once again a misconception about Islam. Usually it is done when a child is very young, few weeks perhaps. Sometimes if a child is very week then it might be bit delayed but still not as far as puberty. As a coincident, why don�t you pop into my home tomorrow about 9:00 to 9:30 in the morning. My newly born Son will be circumcised and he was born on 30th November this year making him just about 25 days old.

And about your last bit, I think doctors are encouraging more now than ever before for circumcision to avoid so many diseases. And number of people getting circumcised only for health reasons has risen recently. Before you ask me for a link, Just google and you would find.

[keyplus90]

I really meant when a child is very weak. Sorry. This English language, why do they have similar words.

[tessaten]

From the reading I've done about this subject, I have found that doctors have discovered no apparent health benefits for circumcision, unless the boy's foreskin is too tight, then it's beneficial. (I think that, even in such cases, the foreskin is cut to loosen it, rather than removed altogether.)

From what I have seen, heard and read, religion is the main reason for circumcision.

So, if this is the case, why change a perfectly healthy body if it is supposedly created in the image of god? (Keyplus: if you thought the health benefits were negligible, would you still be circumcising your son?)

[keyplus90]

First of all the health benefits are not negligible. Then being a Muslim I do not believe that man was created in the image of god in the sense Christians believe. Christian belief about that is to fit Jesus (pbuh) in the trinity.

Then comes in the religious belief and your question if I would still do if there weren�t any health issues? Yes I would, and the reason is that circumcision existed long before Muhammad (pbuh) was born. In Islam you are supposed to follow the life of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) unless it is proved (and not misunderstood) that any aspect of his life was wrong. Because Islam is a package deal, and a complete way of life and not only a religious belief like other religions which can not be practiced.

[tessaten]

Are you aware that your son's sexual enjoyment will be compromised because of circumcision?

[tessaten]

Two interesting websites...

http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/index.php ?option=content&task=view&id=59

http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/taylor/

[keyplus90]

My enjoyment has never been compromised and I have asked many who had circumcision at later stage of the life once they had sex before that. In fact many said that it seems better. And although enjoyment is part of sex but sex is not all about enjoyment. I have skipped through your link and here are a couple of links for you.

http://www.circinfo.net/

http://www.circinfo.net/benefits_outweigh_the_ risks.html

[Dagman]

Cutting off any part of another person is pretty damned sick in any aspect. We are all born with bits n pieces so we're meant to have them, good grief! If you want to cut bits off your self, go ahead thats you're choice but how dare anyone preach and practise this sad sick ritual on others then follow it up with brainwashing reason which holds no water. Evolution and nature has been aound millions of years, manmade religion?, mmm well...a few hundred. Wonder which is right!
By the way what is the feared disease? if you don't get you're foreskin cut.? absolute rubbish!