A question for buildersmate - annual leave

[thugulike]

What is your opinion on full time staff who work in schools termtime only? Should their annual leave be pro rated or, as their contract of employment continues, should they get a full year entitlement?

Anyoneone else who knows the answer is welcome to respond too. TIA

[thugulike]

docspoc the staff I am referring to work 37 hours per week for 39 week pa so they are full time for the weeks they work.
I'm not getting into the arguement that teachers only work part time as Mr thug was formerly a teacher and I know how hard he worked

[thugulike]

docspoc, teachers do not have annual leave. There is no mention of it in the terms and conditions or their contracts of employment. In theory they can be called to work at any time during the school holidays. I can assure you that many of them work extremely hard. Other staff in schools such as admin staff, teaching assistants, site managers, cleaners, cooks, technicians , counsellors work full time term term.

[factor-fiction]

I suggest docspock should spend a few days in school and see the hectic routine teachers have coping with unruly kids, and should then ask when teachers find time during the day to prepare all the materials, mark books, do reports, attend pastoral meetings, meet parents, supervise detentions etc. The answer is they spend evenings and weekends- and holidays- working too.

[chattykathy]

oh dear - did you not have a good time at school, docspock? BTW having 13 weeks holiday is FAB!!!! hee hee!

Just a point, you should have put a comma after can and can't, tut, tut!

Thugulike - I think some non-teaching staff work extra hours in term time in order to have the school holidays, or they are salaried for the 39 weeks and paid accordingly over the year. Does that help?

[thugulike]

chattycathy the staff in our schools don't work extra hours during term time and they get equated pay so they get a salary each month but it is about 10% less than an FT person who doesn't work term time. My question was a legal one and I thought buildersmate would know the answer.

Where are you buildersmate?

docspock are you feeling any better now?

[Lil O'lady]

Thug, I think the actual answer to this (as opposed to ridiculous sniping by Docspock) is that details will vary between schools. So where a school has training days out of term time and wants the TA or classroom asst to attend, that will be made apparent and they will be paid for that attendance if they are term-time only. Where a power-crazed teacher decides to stamp its tiny foot, teaching staff will be instructed not to leave the premises before 17.00 as well as ancilliary staff.

Most TA and CA roles are required for term time only and I expect this will effectively 'take care' of the leave issue. In all practicality it would not make sense to establish a separate leave entitlement beyond the school holidays. While most teachers are in the school building for for some of the holidays, it is not the case that all teachers are in for all of the holidays, so questions of TA task allocation would arise.
Coming down to your later post, this perhaps answers your query: the term-time only staff get a bit more in pay packet but are not paid for days they don't work. ie school holidays. The all-year-round staff get paid monthly, a bit less.

Putting in another end of the spectrum as a comparison, the advisers and consultants who bother schools from the education department are not on teachers pay and conditions, but generally have to sleep with someone important to be allowed to take leave when the schools are in session. It's all part of the realpolitik of being at work when the people you work for are at work. If you see what I mean.

[Lil O'lady]

soz, first paragraph should read 'power-crazed headtteacher'

[thugulike]

Thanks lil ol lady. I understand about term time working and equated pay, that's not the problem. My query is: if staff work for 39 weeks during term time do they get annual leave based on 39 weeks or, as I believe, as their contract of employment continues during the school holidays, do they get a full year allocation of annual leave. It's a tricky one. I am currently paying full year leave allowance but there are moves afoot to change this system. Not by me I hasten to add.

[Lil O'lady]

Their leave period equates to the school holiday. If you try to stack it any other way, it quickly makes nonesense of why they would be working in a school.

[thugulike]

Lil o'lady I know thioer leave is the same as the school holidays but it's the amount of leave they get paid for that's important. The formula I use is based on 39 weeks work, + 2 weeks during school holidays, 8 bank holidays and 4, 5 or 5.4 weeks annual leave depending on length of service. here are forces at work which are trying to calculate the annual leave on 39 weeks rather than 52.4 weeks. My belief is that as the contract of employment continues you can't base annual leave on 39 weeks.

[buildersmate]

Somewhat late in the day, I've spotted this question.
Sorry to say I don't know the answer - if there is indeed a legal one.
I had to read it three times to get the gist.
I will try and research it and get back to you - but just to clarify, you are trying to work out how much minimum leave based on the statutory rules, someone in this 39 week (term-time) situation should get?

[thugulike]

Aha so you are there lurking buildersmate. Contractual leave is greater than statutory. 20 days (plus BH), after 5 years - 25 days ,after 10 years - 27 days. I don't think the annual leave should be calculated on 39 over 52. I wondered what you thought?

[buildersmate]

Ah I see.
Recapping, some staff (teaching) get paid at the same rate throughout the year and get 'holiday' during non-term time.
Some teaching-assistant-type people are on contracts that mean their pay is based on an equivalent of 39/52ths of a 'full annual rate'. However they get paid this sum over 52 weeks. So they don't get paid for the lost 13 weeks in the year - but then they don't work them either.
In addition, these staff get contractual leave to take some time during the 39 weeks. You are asking whether this holiday should be based on full annual leave entitlement or 39/52ths of the full amount.
I'm sure you appreciate that this is an interpretation of contract question, nothing else.
I reckon the natural justice answer is 39/52ths multiplier should be applied - its illogical any other way. They work 39 weeks of the year and get paid 39 weeks of the year - its just convenience that the pay is actually levelled over 52 weeks. If they were paid for 39 weeks then laid off, this question wouldn't arise. What's the difference?
It seems you are part of the 'management' not part of the 'workers'? I can't guess in what sector of education you work, but surely the local authority or further education establishment above you has some access of legal advice?
At the end of the day, if the 'workers' don't like it, they (or their Union) can argue the proverbial as a civil claim.

[thugulike]

Thanks buildersmate, it's not an easy question to answer. I work for Children's Services but was the Unison Branch Secretary some years ago, so I've been on all sides of the table (even under it on occassion). I have a strong sense of natural justice but I'm also an ET panel member and I know that the law and justice are not the same thing.

It was the continuance of the contract throughout the year that made me doubt the legality of a 39/52 calculation. Perhaps if the PT/TT would be expressed as fraction of FT that would clarify the situation.

I do enjoy these sticky issues, don't you?